4 ms·

If maintaining the population size is the goal, then an alternative is to make havimg kids more attractive. Free daycare, education, healthcare, etc would go so

If maintaining the population size is the goal, then an alternative is to make havimg kids more attractive. Free daycare, education, healthcare, etc would go some way, but income stability also needs to be addressed. Even in Europe, the decision to delay kids is primarily economic (after 20 years of net zero growth). Btw I still want open migration for all the other reasons.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
arcticbull 6y ago
I guess my question would be, why try and incentivize people who don't want to, to have children, when you can bring in willing fully-formed adults?
- pnako 6y ago
  To maintain nations and cultures instead of creating the conditions for civil wars all over the world.
- mtgp1000 6y ago
  Because it is a dangerous fallacy to presume that all peoples are simply replaceable. When you import people you import culture, and that potentially leads to friction.
  - mrmonkeyman 6y ago
    Why are downvoting this? This is obviously the only thing worth talking about. You see the cultural destabilisation happening all over the western world and it's not because of economic factors. Also, let's just name it: importing of Islamic 1. culture and 2. religion is problematic to say the least.
- newen 6y ago
  Because it's not always the case that people don't want to have children but they are instead constrained by their situations, which can be alleviated by free daycare, education, healthcare, etc. I think what you are doing is assuming that the current state of the system is all it can be and that people's decisions they make resulting from the current system what they truly want.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    At some point I question why people want to have children if their idea of "raising a child" is shipping them off as early as possible to have someone else raise them. Sure, situations vary, but it feel like these sorts of incentives eventually encourage parents not to parent.
    - photonios 6y ago
      Example of some incentives where I live: - Pregnant women can start working 6 hours a day at full pay from week 12. - Up to two years of paternity leave at ~80% pay, capped at roughly 3x the median wage. Either parent can take this, or it can be split. - 3 weeks of paternity leave after giving birth for the father. This means a couple can muddle through the first two years of a child's live without worrying about paying for day care of having to quit jobs. Note that this incentives are country-wide and available for all citizens. The government pays you indirectly while you are in paternity leave. How does this encourage not parenting?
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        Broadly that falls under the category of "development" and will have the opposite effect, lowering birth rates, and that's fine. Finland has all of that and more -- in addition to high wages and low inequality. They'll even mail you a box of supplies when you have a child. They have a birth rate of 1.48 vs Canada's 1.5 vs US 1.77 Yes, we should have those things. No, they won't increase birth rates, they'll probably drive them down. I know it's counterintuitive, but they data is very clear.
- theflyinghorse 6y ago
  Don't want to have children or having children has become a much larger economic burden? I want to understand your argument better - are you arguing in favour of replacement of population for the economic benefits (of who?)? So why would I - a person living in a country with my own culture surrounded by my own people - want to have adults from another culture with their own sets of values and morals over children from my own people?
zo1 6y ago
My not so cynical view of the argument would lead me to suggest that "immigration" is an easy and short-term solution to the fertility problem. It's kinda hard to have politicians look at "generational" solutions to problems as the very nature of having politicians is that they "tweak and turn" random knobs to "fix" stuff that we ask them to. The rest is up to us as people and that is why cultural solutions mustn't be discounted entirely and political ones need to support that rather than being full-blown replacements.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

arcticbull 6y ago

I guess my question would be, why try and incentivize people who don't want to, to have children, when you can bring in willing fully-formed adults?

pnako 6y ago
To maintain nations and cultures instead of creating the conditions for civil wars all over the world.
mtgp1000 6y ago
Because it is a dangerous fallacy to presume that all peoples are simply replaceable. When you import people you import culture, and that potentially leads to friction.
- mrmonkeyman 6y ago
  Why are downvoting this? This is obviously the only thing worth talking about. You see the cultural destabilisation happening all over the western world and it's not because of economic factors. Also, let's just name it: importing of Islamic 1. culture and 2. religion is problematic to say the least.
newen 6y ago
Because it's not always the case that people don't want to have children but they are instead constrained by their situations, which can be alleviated by free daycare, education, healthcare, etc. I think what you are doing is assuming that the current state of the system is all it can be and that people's decisions they make resulting from the current system what they truly want.
- kelnos 6y ago
  At some point I question why people want to have children if their idea of "raising a child" is shipping them off as early as possible to have someone else raise them. Sure, situations vary, but it feel like these sorts of incentives eventually encourage parents not to parent.
  - photonios 6y ago
    Example of some incentives where I live: - Pregnant women can start working 6 hours a day at full pay from week 12. - Up to two years of paternity leave at ~80% pay, capped at roughly 3x the median wage. Either parent can take this, or it can be split. - 3 weeks of paternity leave after giving birth for the father. This means a couple can muddle through the first two years of a child's live without worrying about paying for day care of having to quit jobs. Note that this incentives are country-wide and available for all citizens. The government pays you indirectly while you are in paternity leave. How does this encourage not parenting?
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Broadly that falls under the category of "development" and will have the opposite effect, lowering birth rates, and that's fine. Finland has all of that and more -- in addition to high wages and low inequality. They'll even mail you a box of supplies when you have a child. They have a birth rate of 1.48 vs Canada's 1.5 vs US 1.77 Yes, we should have those things. No, they won't increase birth rates, they'll probably drive them down. I know it's counterintuitive, but they data is very clear.
theflyinghorse 6y ago
Don't want to have children or having children has become a much larger economic burden? I want to understand your argument better - are you arguing in favour of replacement of population for the economic benefits (of who?)? So why would I - a person living in a country with my own culture surrounded by my own people - want to have adults from another culture with their own sets of values and morals over children from my own people?

zo1 6y ago

My not so cynical view of the argument would lead me to suggest that "immigration" is an easy and short-term solution to the fertility problem. It's kinda hard to have politicians look at "generational" solutions to problems as the very nature of having politicians is that they "tweak and turn" random knobs to "fix" stuff that we ask them to. The rest is up to us as people and that is why cultural solutions mustn't be discounted entirely and political ones need to support that rather than being full-blown replacements.