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Serious question: why do you limit your argument to policing political content only? Do you think they should also not police sexual content/paedophilic content

by osrec 6y ago

Serious question: why do you limit your argument to policing political content only? Do you think they should also not police sexual content/paedophilic content? I personally believe that inoffensive* content does not deserve policing. However, content that strays outside the bounds of common decency, probably needs to be censored. If a political campaign started advocating for the legalisation of child marriage, for example, despite it being a political ad, it is also far beyond the realms of common decency and should be censored. Similarly, for political ads that insight hate or xenophobia. -- *Defining "inoffensive" is difficult, but that's part of your job if you're running the largest social media platform in the world. Once you filter out the bots, your own "like/hate" buttons should allow you to highlight the more controversial items.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
saagarjha 6y ago
> However, content that strays outside the bounds of common decency, probably needs to be censored. "Common decency" is not a some fixed, widely-agreed upon thing. There are many books that are controversial because they discuss racism, for example; should they be censored?
- osrec 6y ago
  Yes, "common decency" is subjective, much like "inoffensive content", as I mention in my original comment. I'm well aware of the subjectivity at play here. Point is, if you choose to run a platform such as Facebook, you need to find a fair, balanced definition of what is undoubtedly a very subjective concept. If you don't get it right, people will boycott you, as many corporates have done with Facebook. Facebook have clearly not got this right, and it may well hurt their bottom line.
  - troughway 6y ago
    > If you don't get it right, people will boycott you, as many corporates have done with Facebook. Don't be naive. Their boycott has nothing to do with some moral altruism. It's the bottom line that's affected.
albntomat0 6y ago
I agree with your point, but am personally skeptical of anything more than what is literally illegal speech, with controls for individuals to personally filter more if they so choose. There are too many ways for Facebook, Twitter, Reddit etc to fail. The policies that shape speech restrictions on the primary means of communication for many people should come through the appropriate political processes, as problematic as those can often be, not SV boardrooms.
- the_snooze 6y ago
  By that standard, doxxing is fair game. It's not technically illegal in most cases, and the victim, their loved ones, and employers are free try their best to personally filter out the abuse.
  - albntomat0 6y ago
    Thanks for pointing it out. That was not a abuse case I considered. It's straightforward to create a list of restrictions based on types of information to prevent doxxing, at least from my understanding. Avoiding postings of addresses, employers, etc without the consent of the original person can be made an unambiguous rule. I don't believe such a restriction could be used as a weapon to silence legitimate speech. My ultimate concern however, is the poor application of harder to define restrictions like "glorifying violence" being used maliciously. I could see pressure from various people that recent protest organizing would fall under the same category (not that I agree with such assertion). As Twitter has decided to filter some speech, bad actors are going to try to use that filtering to get opposing speech filtered. Additionally, that's all assuming Twitter, Facebook, etc are acting in good faith. There are numerous ways the good intentions here result in dystopian outcomes.
    - the_snooze 6y ago
      I'm not sure it's so straightforward. Under the anti-doxxing restrictions you laid out, journalists could have been muzzled for identifying the unmarked law enforcement officers in DC a few weeks ago [1]. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/washington-dc-protests-unidentified-law-enforcement-officers/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/washington-dc-protests-unidenti...
Taek 6y ago
I do not like this example. Advocating to change the laws in favor pedophilia or child marriage is absolutely within the realm of what should be protected by free speech. We've made progress on topics like homosexuality because ideas that are sometimes highly offensive are allowed to be debated in public. Certainly I'd agree that use of child pornography within a political campaign should be banned, or use of any material that was created by illegally harming other humans or animals, but that is different entirely from campaigning in favor of something highly controversial.
- osrec 6y ago
  Should politicians campaigning on the basis "homosexuality is wrong" be allowed to do so, especially when using that line to enflame religious groups, with the sole purpose of securing votes? And if in power, should they then be allowed to reintroduce the ridiculing and eventual persecution of homosexuals, on the initial grounds of free speech?
  - pnako 6y ago
    Should politicians campaigning on the basis "oil extraction is wrong" be allowed to do so, especially when using that line to enflame energy groups, with the sole purpose of securing votes? And if in power, should they then be allowed to reintroduce high corporate tax rates, on the initial grounds of free speech?
  - influx 6y ago
    How about a more realistic example: a politician campaigning to abolish the electoral college? Thoughts?
  - Taek 6y ago
    As a campaign topic, yes I believe people should be able to advocate the persecution of homosexuals or the re-criminalization of marijuana. These topics are important to the protection of free speech. Censorship of ideas you don't like will create tension and unrest from the groups that are not allowed to express the ideas that they truly believe in.
manfredo 6y ago
> Do you think they should also not police sexual content/paedophilic content? The latter is prohibited by law. The former is also prohibited by law unless Facebook disallows minors from using the platform. Furthermore, there's a distinct social expectation that pornographic content is cordoned off from the public square. Appealing to common decency in policing political content doesn't work because there's conflicting views on what is and isn't common decency. Plenty of people think it goes against common decency to advocate for defunding police, or expanding abortion. Remember that what you think goes against common decency, there's plenty of people who think it very much does belong in public discourse. And there are plenty of things that you feel belongs in public discourse that others think goes against common decency. On second thought: Facebook already does what you're advocating. Content that goes against what is genuine common decency - "common decency" meaning that the overwhelming majority of the public supports its exclusion - is removed. It just so happens that what really does go against common decency is much narrower than many people believe and mostly encompasses sexual content.

by osrec 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

saagarjha 6y ago

> However, content that strays outside the bounds of common decency, probably needs to be censored. "Common decency" is not a some fixed, widely-agreed upon thing. There are many books that are controversial because they discuss racism, for example; should they be censored?

osrec 6y ago
Yes, "common decency" is subjective, much like "inoffensive content", as I mention in my original comment. I'm well aware of the subjectivity at play here. Point is, if you choose to run a platform such as Facebook, you need to find a fair, balanced definition of what is undoubtedly a very subjective concept. If you don't get it right, people will boycott you, as many corporates have done with Facebook. Facebook have clearly not got this right, and it may well hurt their bottom line.
- troughway 6y ago
  > If you don't get it right, people will boycott you, as many corporates have done with Facebook. Don't be naive. Their boycott has nothing to do with some moral altruism. It's the bottom line that's affected.

albntomat0 6y ago

I agree with your point, but am personally skeptical of anything more than what is literally illegal speech, with controls for individuals to personally filter more if they so choose. There are too many ways for Facebook, Twitter, Reddit etc to fail. The policies that shape speech restrictions on the primary means of communication for many people should come through the appropriate political processes, as problematic as those can often be, not SV boardrooms.

the_snooze 6y ago
By that standard, doxxing is fair game. It's not technically illegal in most cases, and the victim, their loved ones, and employers are free try their best to personally filter out the abuse.
- albntomat0 6y ago
  Thanks for pointing it out. That was not a abuse case I considered. It's straightforward to create a list of restrictions based on types of information to prevent doxxing, at least from my understanding. Avoiding postings of addresses, employers, etc without the consent of the original person can be made an unambiguous rule. I don't believe such a restriction could be used as a weapon to silence legitimate speech. My ultimate concern however, is the poor application of harder to define restrictions like "glorifying violence" being used maliciously. I could see pressure from various people that recent protest organizing would fall under the same category (not that I agree with such assertion). As Twitter has decided to filter some speech, bad actors are going to try to use that filtering to get opposing speech filtered. Additionally, that's all assuming Twitter, Facebook, etc are acting in good faith. There are numerous ways the good intentions here result in dystopian outcomes.
  - the_snooze 6y ago
    I'm not sure it's so straightforward. Under the anti-doxxing restrictions you laid out, journalists could have been muzzled for identifying the unmarked law enforcement officers in DC a few weeks ago [1]. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/washington-dc-protests-unidentified-law-enforcement-officers/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/washington-dc-protests-unidenti...

Taek 6y ago

I do not like this example. Advocating to change the laws in favor pedophilia or child marriage is absolutely within the realm of what should be protected by free speech. We've made progress on topics like homosexuality because ideas that are sometimes highly offensive are allowed to be debated in public. Certainly I'd agree that use of child pornography within a political campaign should be banned, or use of any material that was created by illegally harming other humans or animals, but that is different entirely from campaigning in favor of something highly controversial.

osrec 6y ago
Should politicians campaigning on the basis "homosexuality is wrong" be allowed to do so, especially when using that line to enflame religious groups, with the sole purpose of securing votes? And if in power, should they then be allowed to reintroduce the ridiculing and eventual persecution of homosexuals, on the initial grounds of free speech?
- pnako 6y ago
  Should politicians campaigning on the basis "oil extraction is wrong" be allowed to do so, especially when using that line to enflame energy groups, with the sole purpose of securing votes? And if in power, should they then be allowed to reintroduce high corporate tax rates, on the initial grounds of free speech?
- influx 6y ago
  How about a more realistic example: a politician campaigning to abolish the electoral college? Thoughts?
- Taek 6y ago
  As a campaign topic, yes I believe people should be able to advocate the persecution of homosexuals or the re-criminalization of marijuana. These topics are important to the protection of free speech. Censorship of ideas you don't like will create tension and unrest from the groups that are not allowed to express the ideas that they truly believe in.

manfredo 6y ago

> Do you think they should also not police sexual content/paedophilic content? The latter is prohibited by law. The former is also prohibited by law unless Facebook disallows minors from using the platform. Furthermore, there's a distinct social expectation that pornographic content is cordoned off from the public square. Appealing to common decency in policing political content doesn't work because there's conflicting views on what is and isn't common decency. Plenty of people think it goes against common decency to advocate for defunding police, or expanding abortion. Remember that what you think goes against common decency, there's plenty of people who think it very much does belong in public discourse. And there are plenty of things that you feel belongs in public discourse that others think goes against common decency. On second thought: Facebook already does what you're advocating. Content that goes against what is genuine common decency - "common decency" meaning that the overwhelming majority of the public supports its exclusion - is removed. It just so happens that what really does go against common decency is much narrower than many people believe and mostly encompasses sexual content.