5 ms·

So, it’s important to treat them...the way you should treat everyone. True statement. I think you’ll need to elaborate further on what the philosophical and sem

So, it’s important to treat them...the way you should treat everyone. True statement. I think you’ll need to elaborate further on what the philosophical and semantic difference is between ignoring and noticing, because the outcome is the same in your example.

networkimprov 6y ago
Intending to overcompensate is an effective method to actually treat them the way you should treat everyone.
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  Eh, that only works if you have trouble treating people equally otherwise which is quite the character trait. That advice goes back to this idea that white people are born with the original sin of racism. I find it incredibly patronizing to actively pursue "okay, black guy is talking, let me me play everything up a little bit!" Yikes. Reminds me of kneeling to talk to a child in a baby voice when they're crying that borders on a weird manipulation. If you have such a hard time giving people of other races equal footing and need a roleplay minigame like this to do it, please speak for yourself and not everyone else. A good leadership + empathy trait is to recognize people who aren't able to get their word in, in general, and use some of your leverage to help them. This may be the one male substitute teacher on a team of professional women teachers, or the whitest kid in a Mexican school (my experience), or a woman in a male-dominated workplace, or a black guy on a team of east asians. I'd rather be teaching that. That's the actual moral bedrock that you're trying to get at here but in the wrong way. And once you realize this, you'll realize there are plenty of other people in meetings that don't have equal footing for all sorts of reasons, like the soft-spoken guy with low self-confidence, probably the most common in our field.
  - komali2 6y ago
    > white people are born with the original sin of racism. No, it doesn't, but this is generally speaking a perfect encapsulation of the "all lives matter" perspective, which is morally incorrect, usually not because of raw KKK level hatred or racism but instead simple ignorance of what unconscious bias and racism is really like for POC in America. > I find it incredibly patronizing to actively pursue "okay, black guy is talking, let me me play everything up a little bit!" This is also a common trope I've encountered time and time again. Some call it "racism of low expectations." The important distinction to make is that being an ally isn't patronizing, it's an active recognition of the reality of racism and unconscious bias that POC face in the workplace. The fact that you jump all the way to comparing it to speaking to a child in a baby voice says more about your own lack of empathy than an effective rhetorical attack on the position that "seeing color" as an ally is good and helpful. I don't know you but your position is identical to a lot of people who think they aren't racist but I have observed act in a biased way, unconsciously. The playing field isn't level. Doing nothing aids the status quo, and the status quo is systemic racism against POC.
    - dafoex 6y ago
      This is great and all, but as someone who's been patronised in this way for being the autistic kid, I'd rather you just treat me like a human being. I've learned my coping strategies, I don't need you to cope for me.
      - komali2 6y ago
        I'm sorry you were patronized. Nobody likes being patronized. You may have learned to cope but not all coping is equal and not everyone can. Again, the argument isn't for baby talk. It's for adult strategies for adult issues. Be it ensuring that a woman can have her voice heard in a meeting or an autistic employee can have a desk in a non-busy part of the office. Non-patronizing, reasonable, and aware methods to improve inclusivity and be an ally. An ally doesn't take over the fighting entirely, they simply aid.
        dafoex 6y ago
        This is kind of what I'm getting at, though. You've just made the assumption I'm hypersensive to noise, and while that does sometimes bother me, the thing that causes me sensory overload is heat. I can solve this fairly easily because I have a reasonably quiet desk fan that doesn't take a lot of space and can be powered off of USB if needed. Please don't fight for me over things I can solve myself. What I do struggle with is being able to get a word in edgeways during group conversation, and that can be solved quite easily with a good team leader inviting quiet voices to speak. This is where I need the most help because real life isn't a neatly nested series of conversation threads where replies accurately link back to the quoted text, life is life and life is a mess.
        komali2 6y ago
        That's good then. If I pretended you were homogeneous with me (ignored color, the root of this thread), I'd not have had this conversation and learned that sensory overload can be caused by heat. This is exactly the sort of thing I want to happen throughout offices across America. Life is a mess hence why I don't think we should pretend otherwise. You don't want help, cool! Some do. I've been told this explicitly. If I act on a general rule of thumb of keeping the dialogue open, that would mean people like you can say "no thanks, I don't need help," and that's that.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    I can’t stop thinking that ideas like GP is explaining is just a modernized racial segregation
    - komali2 6y ago
      This alt-right trope that diversity and inclusion is modern racial segregation should have been DOA but I keep seeing it crop up even here. Frustrating. The ask is to become aware of and fight against your own unconscious biases, nothing more.
      - staticautomatic 6y ago
        I think part of the philosophical disagreement here is whether fighting against one’s bias is a necessary precursor to treating people equally. As a practical matter I think that’s probably true for most people, but I’m not sure it’s universally true either in theory or in practice. I respect this line of thinking but it also assumes or implies that anyone who just treats people equally because it’s the right thing to do has either necessarily failed to confront their biases or done so without knowing it. I don’t know if that’s true or not but I doubt we’ll ever find out because it doesn’t appear to be a falsifiable assertion.
      - nec4b 6y ago
        Oh the ctrl-left trope we are only fighting unconscious biases. Is fighting the unconscious biases like Don Quixote fighting the wind mills or more like repentance for the original sin your born with?
        komali2 6y ago
        Do you disagree that society should be equitable regardless of race?
        nec4b 6y ago
        Yes I do. People should be treated equal regardless of race. All people should be individually judged and not infantilized or demonized because of their skin color. Everything else is deeply anti-humanist and leads to more suffering in pain down the road.
komali2 6y ago
You assume that the unconscious biases are less powerful than the conscious ones, which may not be true (I don't believe it is). A personal example - I "treated everyone equally" for a long time, and then I was brought to be aware of the "don't ignore color" perspective. I started paying active attention and realized I was talking over women in meetings regularly. Crazy regularly. I had no idea. And then I noticed that almost all the men on my team were doing it. By acting as an ally to people in that situation you can turn the tide. If even one person in the meeting is aware of this tendency, they can lend strength to someone who's "given up" trying to get their voice heard, with a simple "hold on, I think {{name}} had something to add." "Ignoring color" means you assume everyone has the motivation and power to play on a level field with a bully, conscious or otherwise. It means you assume there's no such thing as unconscious bias, which is wrong.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  I think your intent is great. But I do think it would be better to keep the outward response as neutral as possible, so you don't unintentially single someone out in your attempt to be inclusive. For example, make a conscious decision to say "hold on, I think {so-and-so} had something to add" when you see that situation with anyone, even if they happen to be a white man (because just being a white male doesn't mean they aren't an introvert who can never get a word in a discussion with more assertive pears).
  - komali2 6y ago
    Sure. But what we're talking about here is how "not seeing color" hurts more than it "helps."
- staticautomatic 6y ago
  I’m not assuming anything. I’m merely pointing out that both scenarios described had the same desired outcome.
  - komali2 6y ago
    In reality I disagree. If I "never saw color," I'd never have the uncomfortable conversations that led to me recognizing and changing unconscious behavior. The point is, one scenario doesn't actually reflect reality, it reflects an ideal that doesn't exist because humans are sloppy.

networkimprov 6y ago

Intending to overcompensate is an effective method to actually treat them the way you should treat everyone.

hombre_fatal 6y ago
Eh, that only works if you have trouble treating people equally otherwise which is quite the character trait. That advice goes back to this idea that white people are born with the original sin of racism. I find it incredibly patronizing to actively pursue "okay, black guy is talking, let me me play everything up a little bit!" Yikes. Reminds me of kneeling to talk to a child in a baby voice when they're crying that borders on a weird manipulation. If you have such a hard time giving people of other races equal footing and need a roleplay minigame like this to do it, please speak for yourself and not everyone else. A good leadership + empathy trait is to recognize people who aren't able to get their word in, in general, and use some of your leverage to help them. This may be the one male substitute teacher on a team of professional women teachers, or the whitest kid in a Mexican school (my experience), or a woman in a male-dominated workplace, or a black guy on a team of east asians. I'd rather be teaching that. That's the actual moral bedrock that you're trying to get at here but in the wrong way. And once you realize this, you'll realize there are plenty of other people in meetings that don't have equal footing for all sorts of reasons, like the soft-spoken guy with low self-confidence, probably the most common in our field.
- komali2 6y ago
  > white people are born with the original sin of racism. No, it doesn't, but this is generally speaking a perfect encapsulation of the "all lives matter" perspective, which is morally incorrect, usually not because of raw KKK level hatred or racism but instead simple ignorance of what unconscious bias and racism is really like for POC in America. > I find it incredibly patronizing to actively pursue "okay, black guy is talking, let me me play everything up a little bit!" This is also a common trope I've encountered time and time again. Some call it "racism of low expectations." The important distinction to make is that being an ally isn't patronizing, it's an active recognition of the reality of racism and unconscious bias that POC face in the workplace. The fact that you jump all the way to comparing it to speaking to a child in a baby voice says more about your own lack of empathy than an effective rhetorical attack on the position that "seeing color" as an ally is good and helpful. I don't know you but your position is identical to a lot of people who think they aren't racist but I have observed act in a biased way, unconsciously. The playing field isn't level. Doing nothing aids the status quo, and the status quo is systemic racism against POC.
  - dafoex 6y ago
    This is great and all, but as someone who's been patronised in this way for being the autistic kid, I'd rather you just treat me like a human being. I've learned my coping strategies, I don't need you to cope for me.
    - komali2 6y ago
      I'm sorry you were patronized. Nobody likes being patronized. You may have learned to cope but not all coping is equal and not everyone can. Again, the argument isn't for baby talk. It's for adult strategies for adult issues. Be it ensuring that a woman can have her voice heard in a meeting or an autistic employee can have a desk in a non-busy part of the office. Non-patronizing, reasonable, and aware methods to improve inclusivity and be an ally. An ally doesn't take over the fighting entirely, they simply aid.
      - dafoex 6y ago
        This is kind of what I'm getting at, though. You've just made the assumption I'm hypersensive to noise, and while that does sometimes bother me, the thing that causes me sensory overload is heat. I can solve this fairly easily because I have a reasonably quiet desk fan that doesn't take a lot of space and can be powered off of USB if needed. Please don't fight for me over things I can solve myself. What I do struggle with is being able to get a word in edgeways during group conversation, and that can be solved quite easily with a good team leader inviting quiet voices to speak. This is where I need the most help because real life isn't a neatly nested series of conversation threads where replies accurately link back to the quoted text, life is life and life is a mess.
        komali2 6y ago
        That's good then. If I pretended you were homogeneous with me (ignored color, the root of this thread), I'd not have had this conversation and learned that sensory overload can be caused by heat. This is exactly the sort of thing I want to happen throughout offices across America. Life is a mess hence why I don't think we should pretend otherwise. You don't want help, cool! Some do. I've been told this explicitly. If I act on a general rule of thumb of keeping the dialogue open, that would mean people like you can say "no thanks, I don't need help," and that's that.
- numpad0 6y ago
  I can’t stop thinking that ideas like GP is explaining is just a modernized racial segregation
  - komali2 6y ago
    This alt-right trope that diversity and inclusion is modern racial segregation should have been DOA but I keep seeing it crop up even here. Frustrating. The ask is to become aware of and fight against your own unconscious biases, nothing more.
    - staticautomatic 6y ago
      I think part of the philosophical disagreement here is whether fighting against one’s bias is a necessary precursor to treating people equally. As a practical matter I think that’s probably true for most people, but I’m not sure it’s universally true either in theory or in practice. I respect this line of thinking but it also assumes or implies that anyone who just treats people equally because it’s the right thing to do has either necessarily failed to confront their biases or done so without knowing it. I don’t know if that’s true or not but I doubt we’ll ever find out because it doesn’t appear to be a falsifiable assertion.
    - nec4b 6y ago
      Oh the ctrl-left trope we are only fighting unconscious biases. Is fighting the unconscious biases like Don Quixote fighting the wind mills or more like repentance for the original sin your born with?
      - komali2 6y ago
        Do you disagree that society should be equitable regardless of race?
        nec4b 6y ago
        Yes I do. People should be treated equal regardless of race. All people should be individually judged and not infantilized or demonized because of their skin color. Everything else is deeply anti-humanist and leads to more suffering in pain down the road.

komali2 6y ago

You assume that the unconscious biases are less powerful than the conscious ones, which may not be true (I don't believe it is). A personal example - I "treated everyone equally" for a long time, and then I was brought to be aware of the "don't ignore color" perspective. I started paying active attention and realized I was talking over women in meetings regularly. Crazy regularly. I had no idea. And then I noticed that almost all the men on my team were doing it. By acting as an ally to people in that situation you can turn the tide. If even one person in the meeting is aware of this tendency, they can lend strength to someone who's "given up" trying to get their voice heard, with a simple "hold on, I think {{name}} had something to add." "Ignoring color" means you assume everyone has the motivation and power to play on a level field with a bully, conscious or otherwise. It means you assume there's no such thing as unconscious bias, which is wrong.

rootusrootus 6y ago
I think your intent is great. But I do think it would be better to keep the outward response as neutral as possible, so you don't unintentially single someone out in your attempt to be inclusive. For example, make a conscious decision to say "hold on, I think {so-and-so} had something to add" when you see that situation with anyone, even if they happen to be a white man (because just being a white male doesn't mean they aren't an introvert who can never get a word in a discussion with more assertive pears).
- komali2 6y ago
  Sure. But what we're talking about here is how "not seeing color" hurts more than it "helps."
staticautomatic 6y ago
I’m not assuming anything. I’m merely pointing out that both scenarios described had the same desired outcome.
- komali2 6y ago
  In reality I disagree. If I "never saw color," I'd never have the uncomfortable conversations that led to me recognizing and changing unconscious behavior. The point is, one scenario doesn't actually reflect reality, it reflects an ideal that doesn't exist because humans are sloppy.