4 ms·

Can you explain how racism isn't a personal choice?

dx87 6y ago
People are tribal about anything they identify with, whether it's their race, local sports team, country of birth, etc. It's not okay to be racist, but it's also not something you can legislate away. You may as well try to outlaw getting angry at people, it'll be just as effective.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  There may not be laws[1] about getting angry, but there are laws about assault, let alone battery. [1] here referring to legal code, not social code.
- catalogia 6y ago
  Anger is a choice, at least to a limited extent. Managing ones emotions is a skill that can be honed with practice, if you're willing to make the effort. I don't say this to nitpick your point. I just think it's worth saying since some people may not realize they have a choice.
  - cal5k 6y ago
    It's not a choice at all. You don't choose to feel angry, but you can choose how you respond to it (often with great difficulty). Similarly, I have never seen evidence to suggest that the strong desire to associate with people like you (on one of many dimensions) can be eliminated. You do, however, get to decide how to act on that desire - likely to perpetually imperfect results as is the case with anger. I've let anger get the best of me before, and I'm sure I've judged people based on stereotypes despite my best intentions not to.
    - cgriswald 6y ago
      Do the things that angered you when you were five years old still anger you now? Hopefully not. It’s not just because you’ve grown up. It’s because you think differently than you did when you were five. You’ve also learned that in many contexts anger isn’t worth it. So you’ve stopped being angry about it. People like to imagine it’s the stimulus that makes us angry. “Of course I’m angry! That guy cut me off! He made me angry!” That guy has no access to your internal state except the access you give him. He performed an action. It’s obviously not the action that made someone angry or we’d all get angry when that happens. Yet we don’t. For those who get angry it’s their thoughts about the action that “made them angry.” We make these choices frequently over time (often on autopilot or subconsciously) and seldom attempt to choose otherwise. So it feels innate, like something out of our control that just happens. That might be true of a child and there are certainly some innate biases from evolution, but that doesn’t mean it’s out of our hands. None of this is to say it’s easy to change those thoughts nor that it can be done on a whim. It’s also not to say that anger isn’t understandable in many contexts or to unempathetically wash our hands of others feelings. It’s also not to excuse unacceptable behaviors in others. It is to say that, yes, how we feel is very much our choice.
  - Tronno 6y ago
    Managing one's emotions is a choice, experiencing them in the first place is not.
    - catalogia 6y ago
      Managed vs unmanaged anger can be the difference between a rationality clouding typhoon vs the faint smell of rain on the horizon. The deleterious effects of anger are avoidable, usually anyway, with some effort.
    - komali2 6y ago
      To a point. Eventually your own management gets to the point where a certain emotion doesn't get experienced at all. Personal experience. I used to fly into a red hot rage on the road. Now someone cuts me off and I feel absolutely nothing at all about it. My management made my anger a choice.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Calling out normal people for terrible choices they make is just bragging your own ethics seen from your own standpoint
    - catalogia 6y ago
      It was not my intention to call out anybody (I don't think the person I responded to was angry, so there was no call-out here.) Anger is something I used to have a lot of trouble with. At one point, somebody took me aside and explained that anger is something I can control, if I have the will to do so. That's a favor I try to pay forward.
- metalgearsolid3 6y ago
  This doesn't make any sense to me considering an uncontrolled outburst of anger is the exact kind of thing that gets people punished by law.
  - dx87 6y ago
    Anger isn't what's being punished, choosing to act on it is. I've met people who think that racism is an act that people choose, instead of a natural feeling that you shouldn't act on. Tribalism, whatever it's about, isn't going to go away any time soon, so I think trying to make people feel like they're part of the same tribe is a better solution than trying to legislate away millennia of human nature.
    - komali2 6y ago
      I don't think anti-racist legislation (what even is that? Do you mean maybe civil rights acts type things?) Is trying to legislate away human nature. Near perfect empathy is also in human nature. After all, why are we capable of desiring to end racism? It's about choosing the ethical and good parts of our nature, promoting that, and making Hate the less desirable choice.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  The proposal would punish racist actions, not racist thoughts. You're free to like the Yankees more than the Mets, but you can't start giving out promotions to all your Yankee loving co-workers and none of your Mets loving coworkers for that reason.

dx87 6y ago

People are tribal about anything they identify with, whether it's their race, local sports team, country of birth, etc. It's not okay to be racist, but it's also not something you can legislate away. You may as well try to outlaw getting angry at people, it'll be just as effective.

082349872349872 6y ago
There may not be laws[1] about getting angry, but there are laws about assault, let alone battery. [1] here referring to legal code, not social code.
catalogia 6y ago
Anger is a choice, at least to a limited extent. Managing ones emotions is a skill that can be honed with practice, if you're willing to make the effort. I don't say this to nitpick your point. I just think it's worth saying since some people may not realize they have a choice.
- cal5k 6y ago
  It's not a choice at all. You don't choose to feel angry, but you can choose how you respond to it (often with great difficulty). Similarly, I have never seen evidence to suggest that the strong desire to associate with people like you (on one of many dimensions) can be eliminated. You do, however, get to decide how to act on that desire - likely to perpetually imperfect results as is the case with anger. I've let anger get the best of me before, and I'm sure I've judged people based on stereotypes despite my best intentions not to.
  - cgriswald 6y ago
    Do the things that angered you when you were five years old still anger you now? Hopefully not. It’s not just because you’ve grown up. It’s because you think differently than you did when you were five. You’ve also learned that in many contexts anger isn’t worth it. So you’ve stopped being angry about it. People like to imagine it’s the stimulus that makes us angry. “Of course I’m angry! That guy cut me off! He made me angry!” That guy has no access to your internal state except the access you give him. He performed an action. It’s obviously not the action that made someone angry or we’d all get angry when that happens. Yet we don’t. For those who get angry it’s their thoughts about the action that “made them angry.” We make these choices frequently over time (often on autopilot or subconsciously) and seldom attempt to choose otherwise. So it feels innate, like something out of our control that just happens. That might be true of a child and there are certainly some innate biases from evolution, but that doesn’t mean it’s out of our hands. None of this is to say it’s easy to change those thoughts nor that it can be done on a whim. It’s also not to say that anger isn’t understandable in many contexts or to unempathetically wash our hands of others feelings. It’s also not to excuse unacceptable behaviors in others. It is to say that, yes, how we feel is very much our choice.
- Tronno 6y ago
  Managing one's emotions is a choice, experiencing them in the first place is not.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    Managed vs unmanaged anger can be the difference between a rationality clouding typhoon vs the faint smell of rain on the horizon. The deleterious effects of anger are avoidable, usually anyway, with some effort.
  - komali2 6y ago
    To a point. Eventually your own management gets to the point where a certain emotion doesn't get experienced at all. Personal experience. I used to fly into a red hot rage on the road. Now someone cuts me off and I feel absolutely nothing at all about it. My management made my anger a choice.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Calling out normal people for terrible choices they make is just bragging your own ethics seen from your own standpoint
  - catalogia 6y ago
    It was not my intention to call out anybody (I don't think the person I responded to was angry, so there was no call-out here.) Anger is something I used to have a lot of trouble with. At one point, somebody took me aside and explained that anger is something I can control, if I have the will to do so. That's a favor I try to pay forward.
metalgearsolid3 6y ago
This doesn't make any sense to me considering an uncontrolled outburst of anger is the exact kind of thing that gets people punished by law.
- dx87 6y ago
  Anger isn't what's being punished, choosing to act on it is. I've met people who think that racism is an act that people choose, instead of a natural feeling that you shouldn't act on. Tribalism, whatever it's about, isn't going to go away any time soon, so I think trying to make people feel like they're part of the same tribe is a better solution than trying to legislate away millennia of human nature.
  - komali2 6y ago
    I don't think anti-racist legislation (what even is that? Do you mean maybe civil rights acts type things?) Is trying to legislate away human nature. Near perfect empathy is also in human nature. After all, why are we capable of desiring to end racism? It's about choosing the ethical and good parts of our nature, promoting that, and making Hate the less desirable choice.
oh_sigh 6y ago
The proposal would punish racist actions, not racist thoughts. You're free to like the Yankees more than the Mets, but you can't start giving out promotions to all your Yankee loving co-workers and none of your Mets loving coworkers for that reason.