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> As someone who has been looking for good anti-racialist arguments for a long time... Racism isn't useful and isn't actionable at a policy level. Let's suppo

> As someone who has been looking for good anti-racialist arguments for a long time... Racism isn't useful and isn't actionable at a policy level. Let's suppose there is some trait X (could be IQ test score, high jump ability, whatever) that is statistically variant by rigorously defined race. Group A scores on average 98, group B scores on average 103. The median difference between groups doesn't actually matter, because individual scores are spread on a normal distribution. Therefore some percentage of individuals of group A will score higher on trait X than individuals of group B even if on average they do not. So how can you effectively filter out individuals for entry into some special program? (for example, the high jump event in the Olympics) Well, you have to test each individual. And if you want the very best, it behooves you to test each individual as fairly as possible, because there's always a chance that you will sample an individual from group A who is a super star, and also find an individual from group B who is a dud. And it is the same for any other trait you would like to filter for. Racism is an attempt to find a convenient mental shortcut so that it may provide cover for hatred of an out-group. But racism is ineffective and stupid.

concordDance 6y ago
Actual discussion of racist thought is pretty off topic, I am more interested in where one could find good anti-race realist resources (and arguing for why attemptibg to censor racist thought can cause the problem of lack of said resources) then trying to rehash hundred thousand word arguments on an extremely complex topic in comments. That said, it would be rude to ignore the effort you've made, so: The main actionable things the HBDers I've spoken to want include no longer automatically treating mismatches between demographics in employment, prison, etc as a problem and introducing testing for those coming emmigrating into their country. Also, there is a weakness in testing, namely that even racialists think things like intelligence are partly non-shared environment, so if you set a lower bar filter from a population with lower average IQ, then while the people you get will meet your threshhold, their children would often not (assuming this supposed genetic difference exists), which is relevant to immigration rules.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  Here: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Racism https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Racism. Rational Wiki is a good resource for exploring arguments against bad ideas.
  - concordDance 6y ago
    Are you being sarcastic? rationalwiki is terrible for arguments against anything (more of a place for smug circlejerks) and best I can tell doesn't include ANY arguments at all for the falseness of racism on the linked page (something of the form "if groups really did differ in average intelligence then we would expect to see X, but insteas we see Y"). I suspect the lack of such an argument is partly because, like almost everyone, they are unaware of the actual arguments HBDers make.
  - dabbernaught420 6y ago
    rationalwiki has a reputation for being extraordinarily bad for exploring arguments on controversial subjects. See: http://nathancofnas.com/comments-on-my-rationalwiki-page/ http://nathancofnas.com/comments-on-my-rationalwiki-page/ and https://medium.com/@NoahCarl/some-comments-on-the-rationalwiki-page-about-me-e889d98bb165 https://medium.com/@NoahCarl/some-comments-on-the-rationalwi... Frequently found are lies, deliberate misrepresentation, mocking, bullying.
- ansible 6y ago
  > Also, there is a weakness in testing, namely that even racialists think things like intelligence are partly non-shared environment, so if you set a lower bar filter from a population with lower average IQ, then while the people you get will meet your threshhold, their children would often not (assuming this supposed genetic difference exists), which is relevant to immigration rules. So are we going to kick out in-group children from the country when their IQ scores aren't high enough? No? Then that is a a bad argument. Also, I have been trying to avoid the whole debate on what IQ test actually measure...
- dabbernaught420 6y ago
  Here's a classic article from Nick Land as to why racism isn't something worth spending too much time thinking about: http://www.xenosystems.net/hyper-racism/ http://www.xenosystems.net/hyper-racism/ The article is perhaps extreme and overly performative, but I think the central idea of "races" not surviving the near-future is a good one.
secondcoming 6y ago
You seem to be describing a meritocracy which, if I understand correctly, is an ideal promoted by white supremacists? Would you mind if I flagged your post?
- ansible 6y ago
  > You seem to be describing a meritocracy which, if I understand correctly, is an ideal promoted by white supremacists? White supremacists might say they want a meritocracy, but most/all of them actually don't. They just want to create filters slightly more subtle than "no X allowed" signs for their establishments. As I mentioned, if you are going to test, it needs to be fair and accurate, or else it isn't useful. If you want chess champions, you don't hold a quiz on trivia, you stage a chess competition.
  - secondcoming 6y ago
    A metriocracy being preferable isn't just the viewpoint of white supremacists. However, anyone expressing that view is labelled as a white supremacist. The game is rigged.
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      Imma need a big old source on this claim. It seems like you and the word meritocracy have some issues. I never brought it up and frankly it has nothing to do with my argument. You inserted it into the conversation, then immediately played victim. I can’t tell if you are trolling or legitimately can’t figure out what we are talking about here so trying to switch the subject to your own grievance, but in either case, please stop.

concordDance 6y ago

Actual discussion of racist thought is pretty off topic, I am more interested in where one could find good anti-race realist resources (and arguing for why attemptibg to censor racist thought can cause the problem of lack of said resources) then trying to rehash hundred thousand word arguments on an extremely complex topic in comments. That said, it would be rude to ignore the effort you've made, so: The main actionable things the HBDers I've spoken to want include no longer automatically treating mismatches between demographics in employment, prison, etc as a problem and introducing testing for those coming emmigrating into their country. Also, there is a weakness in testing, namely that even racialists think things like intelligence are partly non-shared environment, so if you set a lower bar filter from a population with lower average IQ, then while the people you get will meet your threshhold, their children would often not (assuming this supposed genetic difference exists), which is relevant to immigration rules.

IgorPartola 6y ago
Here: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Racism https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Racism. Rational Wiki is a good resource for exploring arguments against bad ideas.
- concordDance 6y ago
  Are you being sarcastic? rationalwiki is terrible for arguments against anything (more of a place for smug circlejerks) and best I can tell doesn't include ANY arguments at all for the falseness of racism on the linked page (something of the form "if groups really did differ in average intelligence then we would expect to see X, but insteas we see Y"). I suspect the lack of such an argument is partly because, like almost everyone, they are unaware of the actual arguments HBDers make.
- dabbernaught420 6y ago
  rationalwiki has a reputation for being extraordinarily bad for exploring arguments on controversial subjects. See: http://nathancofnas.com/comments-on-my-rationalwiki-page/ http://nathancofnas.com/comments-on-my-rationalwiki-page/ and https://medium.com/@NoahCarl/some-comments-on-the-rationalwiki-page-about-me-e889d98bb165 https://medium.com/@NoahCarl/some-comments-on-the-rationalwi... Frequently found are lies, deliberate misrepresentation, mocking, bullying.
ansible 6y ago
> Also, there is a weakness in testing, namely that even racialists think things like intelligence are partly non-shared environment, so if you set a lower bar filter from a population with lower average IQ, then while the people you get will meet your threshhold, their children would often not (assuming this supposed genetic difference exists), which is relevant to immigration rules. So are we going to kick out in-group children from the country when their IQ scores aren't high enough? No? Then that is a a bad argument. Also, I have been trying to avoid the whole debate on what IQ test actually measure...
dabbernaught420 6y ago
Here's a classic article from Nick Land as to why racism isn't something worth spending too much time thinking about: http://www.xenosystems.net/hyper-racism/ http://www.xenosystems.net/hyper-racism/ The article is perhaps extreme and overly performative, but I think the central idea of "races" not surviving the near-future is a good one.

secondcoming 6y ago

You seem to be describing a meritocracy which, if I understand correctly, is an ideal promoted by white supremacists? Would you mind if I flagged your post?

ansible 6y ago
> You seem to be describing a meritocracy which, if I understand correctly, is an ideal promoted by white supremacists? White supremacists might say they want a meritocracy, but most/all of them actually don't. They just want to create filters slightly more subtle than "no X allowed" signs for their establishments. As I mentioned, if you are going to test, it needs to be fair and accurate, or else it isn't useful. If you want chess champions, you don't hold a quiz on trivia, you stage a chess competition.
- secondcoming 6y ago
  A metriocracy being preferable isn't just the viewpoint of white supremacists. However, anyone expressing that view is labelled as a white supremacist. The game is rigged.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    Imma need a big old source on this claim. It seems like you and the word meritocracy have some issues. I never brought it up and frankly it has nothing to do with my argument. You inserted it into the conversation, then immediately played victim. I can’t tell if you are trolling or legitimately can’t figure out what we are talking about here so trying to switch the subject to your own grievance, but in either case, please stop.