5 ms·

I don't think there are any countries left where international companies can't operate at all without paying bribes. Maybe they won't get their permits as fast

I don't think there are any countries left where international companies can't operate at all without paying bribes. Maybe they won't get their permits as fast, but they can still operate. The fact that GS acts criminally is on GS. The fact that you can do business without being criminal like GS proves that this works. See how I just shifted the conversation to the fact that GS is criminal? That's what we want. Not some routine transaction.

ineedasername 6y ago
Sure, yes, bribes are criminal. But making them criminal didn't make them go away. Now you are shifting your claim from saying the world id bribe-free to simply saying it's not necessary. Which is also not true anyway: I know someone, in the US, who was unable to get a health-inspection sign off without making a separate "gift" to the inspector. The permit languished for months , with no apparent progress or response. Money was being lost. Finally the inspector showed up and made a reference to this "gift". The person I know said he might take his issue to the head of the health department. The inspector said "that's fine, you can do that. When you speak to him, tell my father that I said hello." Other areas of the same business were unable to get a certain supplier to either show up, or when they did, to provide usable product, until a kickback was given. Why not choose a different supplier? Because the type of supplier had to have a specific license to distribute the product, and suppliers had divide up territory so there was only one supplier in any area. Bribery is alive & well. All making it criminal has done is ensure that when it's discovered, it is punished.
- logicallee 6y ago
  So I have a different perspective on what you just wrote. To me a world where you have to pay a bribe is very different to one where it is possible to do business without one. If anyone is doing business in a country without paying a bribe, then everyone can. It's like the difference between being able to run a restaurant without paying the mob and basically ignoring them, and not being to run that restaurant because they will come and beat you up until you do. That is a huge difference. The mob might still sell heroin or do other stuff the city doesn't want them to do but they are not beating up business people who refuse to pay them. That is a huge difference. When it is illegal for you to pay a bribe you can always say that you are not able to, because it's illegal and you're law-abiding. It's that simple. Regarding your example: to me "that's fine, you can do that. When you speak to him, tell my father that I said hello" sounds like a scared bluff. After all the father in this situation has even more to lose than the son does! (Because of the father's higher rank.) So the conversation is totally shifted. It might not even be his father in this case. It is always easy to be on the side of lawfulness. When there's a law behind you. Without that law, it is just you and the ransom seeker, making a private arrangement. No, that's not the way the world should work. I think making paying bribes illegal is fantastic, and the same thing should be done for paying any ransom. People respond to incentives. The government has to destroy that business model. Let me paint you a picture: imagine if you were scared to go on the Internet right now, from any of your devices, because it is similar to going to a gang-infested part of the city where you will get beaten up. That's the world you think is okay: one in which you are being cyber attacked and forced to pay a ransom for "protection". No. Actually that's not the world we live in: when I connect a device to the Internet, I don't feel like I'm about to get beaten up, and neither do you. This works. When someone pays $1 million to change that world, they're doing something very wrong, and it must be strongly illegal.

ineedasername 6y ago

Sure, yes, bribes are criminal. But making them criminal didn't make them go away. Now you are shifting your claim from saying the world id bribe-free to simply saying it's not necessary. Which is also not true anyway: I know someone, in the US, who was unable to get a health-inspection sign off without making a separate "gift" to the inspector. The permit languished for months , with no apparent progress or response. Money was being lost. Finally the inspector showed up and made a reference to this "gift". The person I know said he might take his issue to the head of the health department. The inspector said "that's fine, you can do that. When you speak to him, tell my father that I said hello." Other areas of the same business were unable to get a certain supplier to either show up, or when they did, to provide usable product, until a kickback was given. Why not choose a different supplier? Because the type of supplier had to have a specific license to distribute the product, and suppliers had divide up territory so there was only one supplier in any area. Bribery is alive & well. All making it criminal has done is ensure that when it's discovered, it is punished.

logicallee 6y ago
So I have a different perspective on what you just wrote. To me a world where you have to pay a bribe is very different to one where it is possible to do business without one. If anyone is doing business in a country without paying a bribe, then everyone can. It's like the difference between being able to run a restaurant without paying the mob and basically ignoring them, and not being to run that restaurant because they will come and beat you up until you do. That is a huge difference. The mob might still sell heroin or do other stuff the city doesn't want them to do but they are not beating up business people who refuse to pay them. That is a huge difference. When it is illegal for you to pay a bribe you can always say that you are not able to, because it's illegal and you're law-abiding. It's that simple. Regarding your example: to me "that's fine, you can do that. When you speak to him, tell my father that I said hello" sounds like a scared bluff. After all the father in this situation has even more to lose than the son does! (Because of the father's higher rank.) So the conversation is totally shifted. It might not even be his father in this case. It is always easy to be on the side of lawfulness. When there's a law behind you. Without that law, it is just you and the ransom seeker, making a private arrangement. No, that's not the way the world should work. I think making paying bribes illegal is fantastic, and the same thing should be done for paying any ransom. People respond to incentives. The government has to destroy that business model. Let me paint you a picture: imagine if you were scared to go on the Internet right now, from any of your devices, because it is similar to going to a gang-infested part of the city where you will get beaten up. That's the world you think is okay: one in which you are being cyber attacked and forced to pay a ransom for "protection". No. Actually that's not the world we live in: when I connect a device to the Internet, I don't feel like I'm about to get beaten up, and neither do you. This works. When someone pays $1 million to change that world, they're doing something very wrong, and it must be strongly illegal.