7 ms·

Open letter from a Texas county judge about his Covid mask order

55 points by beervirus 6y ago

airstrike 6y ago
> When did it happen that we all became so focused on our rights and not our obligations to our fellow man and woman? When our society abandoned values in favor of individuals simply valuing themselves. Our world and the incentive and reward systems we have in place have made us selfish loners. Roger Scruton argues something similar but from an art / aesthetics perspective in Why Beauty Matters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHw4MMEnmpc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHw4MMEnmpc Sadly the only link I can find is with Portuguese subtitles, so hope you don't mind
justin212k 6y ago
Lawyers are good at writing.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Not all judges are lawyers. Most are, but in the US it is not always a prerequisite.
noobaccount 6y ago
Historically speaking perceived government overreach is followed by backlash of some sort. In life, we’re all playing the long game. I question the wisdom of some of the health orders in the long run.
sandworm101 6y ago
Interesting. There are cases where witnesses have been specifically banned from using masks to hide themselves. Americans have a right to see the face of their accuser, and to have the jury see it too. I'm all for covid masks but let us not allow this to become an excuse for an evil witness to hide thier face.
- krapp 6y ago
  > Americans have a right to see the face of their accuser, and to have the jury see it too. Americans have the right to face their accuser in court not to literally see the face of their accuser in its entirety. If the latter were an actual thing, all plaintiffs would be required to go into court clean-shaven, so as not to obscure their face with a beard.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    No. I meant literal. This issue come up when a witness wants to appear by phone. There is a cultural assumption that by looking someone in the eye we can tell if they are lying. So phone is not good enough. It has to be phone+video. It has also been an issue where witnesses, mostly women, want to were veils while on the stand. This principal hasn't gotten to scotus, but is well recognized. And procedures for child witnesses appearing outside the courtroom. A speaker on the stand is not good enough. Someone, at least the lawyers, has to see the witness. That has gone to a few higher courts. And special agents who don't want to reveal thier identities.. and and and. There isn't much new when it comes to witnesses.
    - beervirus 6y ago
      Witnesses wear hijabs etc. sometimes. edit: I think I’m wrong in the conclusion I drew here.
      - sandworm101 6y ago
        Some do. Some don't. It is an area where the judge and accused have some latitude depending on the nature of the testimony. If the arguement is made that the hijab is being used to conceal something, a judge will order it removed.
        beervirus 6y ago
        The point is that if it happens sometimes, there’s no constitutional prohibition against it happening.
coding123 6y ago
The entire point of civil society is to allow people to exist with one another. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that wearing a yellow shirt in public instantly kills 5% of the population. I think that anyone would agree that it would be a good law to make it illegal for someone to wear yellow shirts. In fact we would probably make it just as illegal as pointing a gun at someone and shooting them in cold blood. Because, well, that's what you would be doing wearing a yellow shirt (except even more people would die from the shirt). So if society's main goal is to make it so that we can live peacefully amongst each other. Then by golly we should have the ability to make it illegal to walk around with a yellow shirt on. In fact it would be so insane to put on a yellow shirt we should have no fear in telling cops (the ones that survive the yellow shirt murderer) to arrest, incarcerate for life said person. Now, I get that society is hard to change. In this so called Yellow Shirt Means Death world, the meaning and outcome of wearing a yellow shirt has existed forever. So it would be ingrained in everyone. Yellow shirts = fucking bad news. So let's alter this and present a challenge: Yellow shirts didn't start causing this problem until March of 2020. And to make it even stranger, the death happens 30 days after being in the presence of a yellow shirt. But still 5% die. And now you have all sorts of wacko people that don't fucking care and put on yellow shirts anyway. Some percentage of society has never seen one of these people die, so they don't believe the yellow shirt causes it. Some of them wearing yellow shirts may have killed people but the person that died 30 days later so it has no effect on them. They don't even know they killed someone. Anyway, if you didn't read between the lines, I'm saying arrest and jail those that don't wear a mask - because at this point, everyone knows what happens.
- anoncake 6y ago
  It's more like 0.5% if everyone gets infected and a large chunk of them will die anyway. Might as well arrest everyone who drives a car. The virus really isn't that deadly.
  - coding123 6y ago
    Well, don't know what we don't know. We DO know that 10M people have had it, and 500K have died. That's 5%. We're still guessing everything else.
Jedd 6y ago
For many outside of it, even from 'cousin colonies' (I'm in Australia) there is much about the USA that is simply bewildering. I can recommend Kurt Andersen's book 'Fantasyland', published around the time of Trump's ascension, to help you make some small sense of it all. He writes persuasively, and describes a history full of (perceived) persecution and exceptionalism-inspiring events that, almost ineluctably, led them here. "America was the dreamworld creation of fantasists, some religious and some out to get rich quick, all with a freakish appetite for the amazing. Beyond our passionate beliefs in various kinds of magic and destiny, our particular religious DNA, supercharged, was the source of other defining American habits of mind as well, such as the craving for the mysterious to be literal, and the hair-trigger sensitivity to persecution by elites. In addition to being the first designed-built Protestant nation, America was also the first designed-built Enlightenment nation. The two fed each other—and sometimes became toxic in combination." [0] https://www.kurtandersen.com/fantasyland https://www.kurtandersen.com/fantasyland
- beervirus 6y ago
  Hell, I voted for Trump and agree with a lot of his policies (if not his tweets)... and even I find the anti-mask brigade totally baffling.
  - atomi 6y ago
    These comments are all publicly viewable.
    - beervirus 6y ago
      I’m privileged to live in a place other than SV, where I’m allowed to make my politics known without persecution.
      - atomi 6y ago
        > without persecution. I wouldn't be so sure. In practice, persecution can be insidiously subtle.
umvi 6y ago
Haven't we established that ~1/3 of covid cases are asymptomatic and that overall mortality rate is likely <1%? If so, why are we continuing the mask charade?
- tedd4u 6y ago
  It has to do with the hospitals filling up with Covid patients, as they are in Texas, Arizona, and Florida now (easily findable headlines, I won’t bother citing). If hospitals fill up and people can’t be treated (for Covid or other ailments) more people die. The other part is masks reduce transmission of Covid by “up to 85%” according to the WHO. So you put those two together and it’s a good public health policy.
- anoncake 6y ago
  Because people are irrational panicky animals.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  Because when the cost is essentially zero it's okay to be a little overzealous with our prevention efforts. And your numbers are still very much up for debate. Some localities are already above 1% without having infected the entire population.
  - umvi 6y ago
    > Because when the cost is essentially zero it's okay to be a little overzealous with our prevention efforts. We can impose all sort of inconveniences on society in the name of saving lives. Why not just wear masks 24/7/365 since it's "free"? Think of all the public health issues that would solve. I for one am sick of having foggy glasses any time I'm inside a store.
    - rootusrootus 6y ago
      What is your threshold of acceptable mortality before you will accept nonzero inconvenience?

55 points by beervirus 6y ago

> When did it happen that we all became so focused on our rights and not our obligations to our fellow man and woman? When our society abandoned values in favor of individuals simply valuing themselves. Our world and the incentive and reward systems we have in place have made us selfish loners. Roger Scruton argues something similar but from an art / aesthetics perspective in Why Beauty Matters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHw4MMEnmpc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHw4MMEnmpc Sadly the only link I can find is with Portuguese subtitles, so hope you don't mind

justin212k 6y ago

Lawyers are good at writing.

sandworm101 6y ago
Not all judges are lawyers. Most are, but in the US it is not always a prerequisite.

noobaccount 6y ago

Historically speaking perceived government overreach is followed by backlash of some sort. In life, we’re all playing the long game. I question the wisdom of some of the health orders in the long run.

sandworm101 6y ago

Interesting. There are cases where witnesses have been specifically banned from using masks to hide themselves. Americans have a right to see the face of their accuser, and to have the jury see it too. I'm all for covid masks but let us not allow this to become an excuse for an evil witness to hide thier face.

krapp 6y ago
> Americans have a right to see the face of their accuser, and to have the jury see it too. Americans have the right to face their accuser in court not to literally see the face of their accuser in its entirety. If the latter were an actual thing, all plaintiffs would be required to go into court clean-shaven, so as not to obscure their face with a beard.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  No. I meant literal. This issue come up when a witness wants to appear by phone. There is a cultural assumption that by looking someone in the eye we can tell if they are lying. So phone is not good enough. It has to be phone+video. It has also been an issue where witnesses, mostly women, want to were veils while on the stand. This principal hasn't gotten to scotus, but is well recognized. And procedures for child witnesses appearing outside the courtroom. A speaker on the stand is not good enough. Someone, at least the lawyers, has to see the witness. That has gone to a few higher courts. And special agents who don't want to reveal thier identities.. and and and. There isn't much new when it comes to witnesses.
  - beervirus 6y ago
    Witnesses wear hijabs etc. sometimes. edit: I think I’m wrong in the conclusion I drew here.
    - sandworm101 6y ago
      Some do. Some don't. It is an area where the judge and accused have some latitude depending on the nature of the testimony. If the arguement is made that the hijab is being used to conceal something, a judge will order it removed.
      - beervirus 6y ago
        The point is that if it happens sometimes, there’s no constitutional prohibition against it happening.

coding123 6y ago

The entire point of civil society is to allow people to exist with one another. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that wearing a yellow shirt in public instantly kills 5% of the population. I think that anyone would agree that it would be a good law to make it illegal for someone to wear yellow shirts. In fact we would probably make it just as illegal as pointing a gun at someone and shooting them in cold blood. Because, well, that's what you would be doing wearing a yellow shirt (except even more people would die from the shirt). So if society's main goal is to make it so that we can live peacefully amongst each other. Then by golly we should have the ability to make it illegal to walk around with a yellow shirt on. In fact it would be so insane to put on a yellow shirt we should have no fear in telling cops (the ones that survive the yellow shirt murderer) to arrest, incarcerate for life said person. Now, I get that society is hard to change. In this so called Yellow Shirt Means Death world, the meaning and outcome of wearing a yellow shirt has existed forever. So it would be ingrained in everyone. Yellow shirts = fucking bad news. So let's alter this and present a challenge: Yellow shirts didn't start causing this problem until March of 2020. And to make it even stranger, the death happens 30 days after being in the presence of a yellow shirt. But still 5% die. And now you have all sorts of wacko people that don't fucking care and put on yellow shirts anyway. Some percentage of society has never seen one of these people die, so they don't believe the yellow shirt causes it. Some of them wearing yellow shirts may have killed people but the person that died 30 days later so it has no effect on them. They don't even know they killed someone. Anyway, if you didn't read between the lines, I'm saying arrest and jail those that don't wear a mask - because at this point, everyone knows what happens.

anoncake 6y ago
It's more like 0.5% if everyone gets infected and a large chunk of them will die anyway. Might as well arrest everyone who drives a car. The virus really isn't that deadly.
- coding123 6y ago
  Well, don't know what we don't know. We DO know that 10M people have had it, and 500K have died. That's 5%. We're still guessing everything else.

Jedd 6y ago

For many outside of it, even from 'cousin colonies' (I'm in Australia) there is much about the USA that is simply bewildering. I can recommend Kurt Andersen's book 'Fantasyland', published around the time of Trump's ascension, to help you make some small sense of it all. He writes persuasively, and describes a history full of (perceived) persecution and exceptionalism-inspiring events that, almost ineluctably, led them here. "America was the dreamworld creation of fantasists, some religious and some out to get rich quick, all with a freakish appetite for the amazing. Beyond our passionate beliefs in various kinds of magic and destiny, our particular religious DNA, supercharged, was the source of other defining American habits of mind as well, such as the craving for the mysterious to be literal, and the hair-trigger sensitivity to persecution by elites. In addition to being the first designed-built Protestant nation, America was also the first designed-built Enlightenment nation. The two fed each other—and sometimes became toxic in combination." [0] https://www.kurtandersen.com/fantasyland https://www.kurtandersen.com/fantasyland

beervirus 6y ago
Hell, I voted for Trump and agree with a lot of his policies (if not his tweets)... and even I find the anti-mask brigade totally baffling.
- atomi 6y ago
  These comments are all publicly viewable.
  - beervirus 6y ago
    I’m privileged to live in a place other than SV, where I’m allowed to make my politics known without persecution.
    - atomi 6y ago
      > without persecution. I wouldn't be so sure. In practice, persecution can be insidiously subtle.

umvi 6y ago

Haven't we established that ~1/3 of covid cases are asymptomatic and that overall mortality rate is likely <1%? If so, why are we continuing the mask charade?

tedd4u 6y ago
It has to do with the hospitals filling up with Covid patients, as they are in Texas, Arizona, and Florida now (easily findable headlines, I won’t bother citing). If hospitals fill up and people can’t be treated (for Covid or other ailments) more people die. The other part is masks reduce transmission of Covid by “up to 85%” according to the WHO. So you put those two together and it’s a good public health policy.
anoncake 6y ago
Because people are irrational panicky animals.
rootusrootus 6y ago
Because when the cost is essentially zero it's okay to be a little overzealous with our prevention efforts. And your numbers are still very much up for debate. Some localities are already above 1% without having infected the entire population.
- umvi 6y ago
  > Because when the cost is essentially zero it's okay to be a little overzealous with our prevention efforts. We can impose all sort of inconveniences on society in the name of saving lives. Why not just wear masks 24/7/365 since it's "free"? Think of all the public health issues that would solve. I for one am sick of having foggy glasses any time I'm inside a store.
  - rootusrootus 6y ago
    What is your threshold of acceptable mortality before you will accept nonzero inconvenience?