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Majority backlash, grievance and resentment is inevitable. Encouraging that sense of grievance by weighting one majority life over countless minority lives is

Majority backlash, grievance and resentment is inevitable. Encouraging that sense of grievance by weighting one majority life over countless minority lives is counterproductive. Instead, keep perspective by maintaining a sense of proportion of the aggregate injustice. One guy getting fired is a drop in the bucket.

ethanbond 6y ago
As a sort of “net suffering absolutist,” I find that to be somewhat ethically compelling (though many won’t). As someone who wants to see these problems fixed - permanently - I’m just not sure that this approach gets us closer. If it’s a drop in the bucket that discourages a large number of people from throwing their weight behind the solutions offered, then it’s no longer a drop in the bucket.
isoskeles 6y ago
> One guy getting fired is a drop in the bucket. Sure, until it's you.
btilly 6y ago
The attitude that "the wrongs done to me justify wrongs done to someone else" is exactly how every war and racial conflict has gone in the past. Even though momentum is currently on the side that you think is right, the precedent that is being set WILL come back to haunt you. The way to resolve and defuse conflicts is to treat others better than they deserve to be treated. This is also more effective politically. See the second example in the article where research indicated that peaceful protests promoted by MLK were more effective than race riots later. This result should not be a surprise. MLK promoted peaceful protests exactly on the theory that they would be more effective, based among other things on the experience of Ghandhi in India. Those lessons were copied a generation later and played a critical part in bringing down the Iron Curtain. Violence begets violence. Forgiveness begets peace. Going out of your way to treat people with fairness is not just the right thing to do, it is also more effective.
kofejnik 6y ago
> One guy getting fired is a drop in the bucket. If you're willing to ruin innocent lives to further your cause, then I cannot comprehend how it makes you morally superior to _them_ (whoever _they_ might be) Are you keeping the score somewhere? Something like: "Today, we got 11 majority people fired for petty reasons, but it's Ok as it will improve the lives of 18 minority people"
- rectang 6y ago
  > If you're willing to ruin innocent lives to further your cause, No, I am not "willing to ruin innocent lives". I regard these cases as deplorable but inevitable statistical anomalies being highlighted inappropriately. > Are you keeping the score somewhere? I suppose that in a broad sense, I am. I don't believe that innocent people are being unjustly ruined as racists for no reason en masse. I think there's a handful of these cases. In contrast, consider the ridiculous incarceration rates for Black Americans: 1 in 3 Black men will spend time behind bars in their lifetimes, while the rate for all US men is 1 in 17. That's millions of lives ruined. So I will get worked up for each one of these cases in isolation. But I'm not going to allocate my outrage disproportionately to the tiny minority while ignoring the vast majority.
  - kofejnik 6y ago
    > I regard these cases as deplorable but inevitable in other words, acceptable casualties in the war you're waging. nice.
    - rectang 6y ago
      A "war", hmm. No, I don't see it as a "war". It's not a zero-sum conflict. When the bonds of ethnic loyalty are weakened and the bonds of cosmopolitan amity are strengthened, we all win, and our lives are all enriched. As for "acceptable casualties": I certainly would not go along with such injustices as the three anecdotes described in the article if they were playing out before me. Outside of my own limited sphere of influence, I am not cursed with the responsibility of making judgment calls as to what is "acceptable" — yet I can still aspire to weigh the suffering of all parties.
deleted 6y ago
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ethanbond 6y ago

As a sort of “net suffering absolutist,” I find that to be somewhat ethically compelling (though many won’t). As someone who wants to see these problems fixed - permanently - I’m just not sure that this approach gets us closer. If it’s a drop in the bucket that discourages a large number of people from throwing their weight behind the solutions offered, then it’s no longer a drop in the bucket.

isoskeles 6y ago

> One guy getting fired is a drop in the bucket. Sure, until it's you.

btilly 6y ago

The attitude that "the wrongs done to me justify wrongs done to someone else" is exactly how every war and racial conflict has gone in the past. Even though momentum is currently on the side that you think is right, the precedent that is being set WILL come back to haunt you. The way to resolve and defuse conflicts is to treat others better than they deserve to be treated. This is also more effective politically. See the second example in the article where research indicated that peaceful protests promoted by MLK were more effective than race riots later. This result should not be a surprise. MLK promoted peaceful protests exactly on the theory that they would be more effective, based among other things on the experience of Ghandhi in India. Those lessons were copied a generation later and played a critical part in bringing down the Iron Curtain. Violence begets violence. Forgiveness begets peace. Going out of your way to treat people with fairness is not just the right thing to do, it is also more effective.

kofejnik 6y ago

> One guy getting fired is a drop in the bucket. If you're willing to ruin innocent lives to further your cause, then I cannot comprehend how it makes you morally superior to _them_ (whoever _they_ might be) Are you keeping the score somewhere? Something like: "Today, we got 11 majority people fired for petty reasons, but it's Ok as it will improve the lives of 18 minority people"

rectang 6y ago
> If you're willing to ruin innocent lives to further your cause, No, I am not "willing to ruin innocent lives". I regard these cases as deplorable but inevitable statistical anomalies being highlighted inappropriately. > Are you keeping the score somewhere? I suppose that in a broad sense, I am. I don't believe that innocent people are being unjustly ruined as racists for no reason en masse. I think there's a handful of these cases. In contrast, consider the ridiculous incarceration rates for Black Americans: 1 in 3 Black men will spend time behind bars in their lifetimes, while the rate for all US men is 1 in 17. That's millions of lives ruined. So I will get worked up for each one of these cases in isolation. But I'm not going to allocate my outrage disproportionately to the tiny minority while ignoring the vast majority.
- kofejnik 6y ago
  > I regard these cases as deplorable but inevitable in other words, acceptable casualties in the war you're waging. nice.
  - rectang 6y ago
    A "war", hmm. No, I don't see it as a "war". It's not a zero-sum conflict. When the bonds of ethnic loyalty are weakened and the bonds of cosmopolitan amity are strengthened, we all win, and our lives are all enriched. As for "acceptable casualties": I certainly would not go along with such injustices as the three anecdotes described in the article if they were playing out before me. Outside of my own limited sphere of influence, I am not cursed with the responsibility of making judgment calls as to what is "acceptable" — yet I can still aspire to weigh the suffering of all parties.

deleted 6y ago

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