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It's been mob justice all along — just institutionalized and directed at minorities. I agree that we are unlikely to find our way out of it any time soon, beca

It's been mob justice all along — just institutionalized and directed at minorities. I agree that we are unlikely to find our way out of it any time soon, because the dominant majority is entirely unwilling to give up its institutionalized advantages.

ethanbond 6y ago
If this is your position, shouldn't we be focusing on fixing the institutions?
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  Why do you think crowds have been taking to the streets these past weeks?
  - ethanbond 6y ago
    That's obvious, but we were discussing the deployment of mob justice, especially against innocent people. Surely you agree those are different things.
- zwkrt 6y ago
  The only reasonable way to fix an institution is to get the majority of its members to want change.
  - ethanbond 6y ago
    And the strategy is to do that by... outing and destroying people who are demonstrably not racist? Those of us who want real change here should have a strong interest in preventing the stories described in the article. You're right that we need people to want to change, and I'm afraid that these incidents give more ammunition to racists than they galvanize anti-racists. They certainly don't help to convince anyone in the middle to join our side.
    - rectang 6y ago
      Majority backlash, grievance and resentment is inevitable. Encouraging that sense of grievance by weighting one majority life over countless minority lives is counterproductive. Instead, keep perspective by maintaining a sense of proportion of the aggregate injustice. One guy getting fired is a drop in the bucket.
      - ethanbond 6y ago
        As a sort of “net suffering absolutist,” I find that to be somewhat ethically compelling (though many won’t). As someone who wants to see these problems fixed - permanently - I’m just not sure that this approach gets us closer. If it’s a drop in the bucket that discourages a large number of people from throwing their weight behind the solutions offered, then it’s no longer a drop in the bucket.
      - isoskeles 6y ago
        > One guy getting fired is a drop in the bucket. Sure, until it's you.
      - btilly 6y ago
        The attitude that "the wrongs done to me justify wrongs done to someone else" is exactly how every war and racial conflict has gone in the past. Even though momentum is currently on the side that you think is right, the precedent that is being set WILL come back to haunt you. The way to resolve and defuse conflicts is to treat others better than they deserve to be treated. This is also more effective politically. See the second example in the article where research indicated that peaceful protests promoted by MLK were more effective than race riots later. This result should not be a surprise. MLK promoted peaceful protests exactly on the theory that they would be more effective, based among other things on the experience of Ghandhi in India. Those lessons were copied a generation later and played a critical part in bringing down the Iron Curtain. Violence begets violence. Forgiveness begets peace. Going out of your way to treat people with fairness is not just the right thing to do, it is also more effective.
      - kofejnik 6y ago
  - scarface74 6y ago
    That was tried with peacefully taking a knee. He was ignored and called a “son of a bitch” by the President. Conservatives always bring up the “The Three Boxes of Liberty”. Minorities took their advice - it’s time for the third box.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      Soap, ballot, jury, ammo. The third box is jury.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        I’ve seen three, four and five boxes.
    - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
      > "Minorities took their advice - it’s time for the third box." One minority has. Don't presume that the rest of the minorities are with them; progressives have made it clear that they are no friends of theirs. Some recent examples are https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23407254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23407254 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23652659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23652659 .
      - scarface74 6y ago
        Bullet box === tear shit up and get noticed. Yes I realize that Clinton and Biden were the architects of the “War on Crime” in the 90s - AKA “The War on Black Folks” along with profiling during stop and frisk.

ethanbond 6y ago

If this is your position, shouldn't we be focusing on fixing the institutions?

CydeWeys 6y ago
Why do you think crowds have been taking to the streets these past weeks?
- ethanbond 6y ago
  That's obvious, but we were discussing the deployment of mob justice, especially against innocent people. Surely you agree those are different things.
zwkrt 6y ago
The only reasonable way to fix an institution is to get the majority of its members to want change.
- ethanbond 6y ago
  And the strategy is to do that by... outing and destroying people who are demonstrably not racist? Those of us who want real change here should have a strong interest in preventing the stories described in the article. You're right that we need people to want to change, and I'm afraid that these incidents give more ammunition to racists than they galvanize anti-racists. They certainly don't help to convince anyone in the middle to join our side.
  - rectang 6y ago
    Majority backlash, grievance and resentment is inevitable. Encouraging that sense of grievance by weighting one majority life over countless minority lives is counterproductive. Instead, keep perspective by maintaining a sense of proportion of the aggregate injustice. One guy getting fired is a drop in the bucket.
    - ethanbond 6y ago
      As a sort of “net suffering absolutist,” I find that to be somewhat ethically compelling (though many won’t). As someone who wants to see these problems fixed - permanently - I’m just not sure that this approach gets us closer. If it’s a drop in the bucket that discourages a large number of people from throwing their weight behind the solutions offered, then it’s no longer a drop in the bucket.
    - isoskeles 6y ago
      > One guy getting fired is a drop in the bucket. Sure, until it's you.
    - btilly 6y ago
      The attitude that "the wrongs done to me justify wrongs done to someone else" is exactly how every war and racial conflict has gone in the past. Even though momentum is currently on the side that you think is right, the precedent that is being set WILL come back to haunt you. The way to resolve and defuse conflicts is to treat others better than they deserve to be treated. This is also more effective politically. See the second example in the article where research indicated that peaceful protests promoted by MLK were more effective than race riots later. This result should not be a surprise. MLK promoted peaceful protests exactly on the theory that they would be more effective, based among other things on the experience of Ghandhi in India. Those lessons were copied a generation later and played a critical part in bringing down the Iron Curtain. Violence begets violence. Forgiveness begets peace. Going out of your way to treat people with fairness is not just the right thing to do, it is also more effective.
    - kofejnik 6y ago
- scarface74 6y ago
  That was tried with peacefully taking a knee. He was ignored and called a “son of a bitch” by the President. Conservatives always bring up the “The Three Boxes of Liberty”. Minorities took their advice - it’s time for the third box.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    Soap, ballot, jury, ammo. The third box is jury.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      I’ve seen three, four and five boxes.
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    > "Minorities took their advice - it’s time for the third box." One minority has. Don't presume that the rest of the minorities are with them; progressives have made it clear that they are no friends of theirs. Some recent examples are https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23407254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23407254 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23652659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23652659 .
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Bullet box === tear shit up and get noticed. Yes I realize that Clinton and Biden were the architects of the “War on Crime” in the 90s - AKA “The War on Black Folks” along with profiling during stop and frisk.