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Thank you for this. It's my first time learning about it. I'm almost happy it's unknown since this is such a better argument against nuclear power than 3 Mile e

by hirsin 6y ago

Thank you for this. It's my first time learning about it. I'm almost happy it's unknown since this is such a better argument against nuclear power than 3 Mile etc. Although I suppose for it to be an effective scare tactic you'd have to ask yourself some tricky questions about how much you value indigenous lives over corporations...

grogenaut 6y ago
Take a look at the hanford site if you want to be scared. And look at where it is, note that's the Columbia river, which rolls right through northern portland. Or if you don't care about people, it also powers most of the data centers in the northwest. And is right near where most of the hops are grown (won't someone think of the beer!). https://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/AboutHanfordCleanup https://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/AboutHanfordCleanup https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hanford+Site/@46.5656811,-119.5142379,40189m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x54985a3722b17805:0x350eb8746e4035a7!8m2!3d46.5506839!4d-119.4889741 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hanford+Site/@46.5656811,-... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Portland+International+Airport/@45.6001755,-122.6302165,26336m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x54985a3722b17805:0x350eb8746e4035a7!2sHanford+Site!8m2!3d46.5506839!4d-119.4889741!3m4!1s0x5495a0aa74dc20d1:0x5bda7693380e5c3d!8m2!3d45.589777!4d-122.5950623 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Portland+International+Air...
- mcchew 6y ago
  That area also has lots of Bitcoin mining operations. All of society is at risk over here.
  - grogenaut 6y ago
    Definitly, the world would be much worse off without the blockchain!
- hirsin 6y ago
  Yup, I've visited the site and walked up to the reactor face! I think the thing about Church Rock that struck me was the absolute negligence demonstrated throughout. There's certainly neglect at Hanford, but to my understanding none of that is due to the design of it when it was active.
- mcguire 6y ago
  Note that Hanford Reach and the Savannah River site are some of the most ecologically successful areas in the United States, much better than National Parks and National Forests. That's because they're surrounded by razor-wire fences and contaminated enough that no sane persons wants to go near them. Go Nuclear!
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
Not exactly: > Approximately one month after the spill, the Puerco River had regained normal levels of salinity, acidity, and radioactivity at low flow levels, with contaminants being detectable only after heavy rains. Natural uranium is mildly radioactive, but it was a uranium mine. The radioactivity was there before they started. They managed to move it around some. The damage was at least as much attributable to the chemical contaminants which would be present in any similar mining incident regardless of what they were mining. Saying that it was worse than Three Mile Island is a low bar. Three Mile Island wasn't exactly Chernobyl.
ficklepickle 6y ago
It's not a tricky question. Human life > profits. Period. By specifically mentioning the value of indigenous lives, it makes me wonder if you value human life differently based on ethnicity. You are glad that an atrocity committed against human beings is relatively unknown? I just cannot understand that. Is it because you value promoting nuclear power over indigenous human lives? I almost didn't bother replying to your comment. But indifference to the suffering of "the others" needs to be challenged. Go spend time with literally any indigenous peoples. Learn about their culture and challenges. Meet individual indigenous people, look them in the eyes, then tell me their lives have no value. Would it be acceptable to say this about any other ethnicity? For example, would it be OK to end a sentence "...ask yourself some tricky questions about how much you value Jewish lives" ? What about Muslim lives? No, of course it wouldn't. "Obviously labour camps of Uyghur Muslims are not ideal, but you gotta ask yourself tricky questions about how much you value Uyghur lives over profit." That is an absurd statement and so is yours.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  The comment you are responding to didn't express indifference to "indigenous lives", but attributed it to others. Attacking them as though they said people shouldn't care about them seems weird and inappropriate to me. They clearly implied people should, but may not.
  - hirsin 6y ago
    Thank you. Yes, that was my point.
- barrkel 6y ago
  > human life > profits We shouldn't have cars then, or motorcycles. We definitely shouldn't have horse riding schools - horse riding is 20x more dangerous than riding a motorcycle, and the only reason you start a business offering it is to profit, thus you're profiting off human death. Right?
  - sfblah 6y ago
perl4ever 6y ago
Highly radioactive materials are couriered around all the time for medical purposes. Edit: my point being, dangerously radioactive materials are valuable products of nuclear power, not just pollution that comes as a side effect.
dmix 6y ago
> how much you value indigenous lives over corporations... Why is this the dichotomy for supporting modern nuclear power plants? Or in this case a uranium processing plants? Especially compared to burning burning and mining coal.
- hirsin 6y ago
  It's not. The point is that antagonists of nuclear power need scary scenarios to make it effective, and "poisoning tons of people that you don't care about" isn't one of them.
  - jnxx 6y ago
    If you want an argument against new nuclear power, you need to look no further than at the costs of production: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_station#Economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_... That's a projected 92£ per MWh, with likely further costs increases. Compare that to currently around 60€ / MWh for new solar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity
Google234 6y ago
It’s too bad that the anti nuclear green activists succeeded. We could be on our way to achieving a realistic 0 carbon future by now.

by hirsin 6y ago

grogenaut 6y ago

Take a look at the hanford site if you want to be scared. And look at where it is, note that's the Columbia river, which rolls right through northern portland. Or if you don't care about people, it also powers most of the data centers in the northwest. And is right near where most of the hops are grown (won't someone think of the beer!). https://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/AboutHanfordCleanup https://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/AboutHanfordCleanup https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hanford+Site/@46.5656811,-119.5142379,40189m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x54985a3722b17805:0x350eb8746e4035a7!8m2!3d46.5506839!4d-119.4889741 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hanford+Site/@46.5656811,-... https://www.google.com/maps/place/Portland+International+Airport/@45.6001755,-122.6302165,26336m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x54985a3722b17805:0x350eb8746e4035a7!2sHanford+Site!8m2!3d46.5506839!4d-119.4889741!3m4!1s0x5495a0aa74dc20d1:0x5bda7693380e5c3d!8m2!3d45.589777!4d-122.5950623 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Portland+International+Air...

mcchew 6y ago
That area also has lots of Bitcoin mining operations. All of society is at risk over here.
- grogenaut 6y ago
  Definitly, the world would be much worse off without the blockchain!
hirsin 6y ago
Yup, I've visited the site and walked up to the reactor face! I think the thing about Church Rock that struck me was the absolute negligence demonstrated throughout. There's certainly neglect at Hanford, but to my understanding none of that is due to the design of it when it was active.
mcguire 6y ago
Note that Hanford Reach and the Savannah River site are some of the most ecologically successful areas in the United States, much better than National Parks and National Forests. That's because they're surrounded by razor-wire fences and contaminated enough that no sane persons wants to go near them. Go Nuclear!

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

Not exactly: > Approximately one month after the spill, the Puerco River had regained normal levels of salinity, acidity, and radioactivity at low flow levels, with contaminants being detectable only after heavy rains. Natural uranium is mildly radioactive, but it was a uranium mine. The radioactivity was there before they started. They managed to move it around some. The damage was at least as much attributable to the chemical contaminants which would be present in any similar mining incident regardless of what they were mining. Saying that it was worse than Three Mile Island is a low bar. Three Mile Island wasn't exactly Chernobyl.

ficklepickle 6y ago

It's not a tricky question. Human life > profits. Period. By specifically mentioning the value of indigenous lives, it makes me wonder if you value human life differently based on ethnicity. You are glad that an atrocity committed against human beings is relatively unknown? I just cannot understand that. Is it because you value promoting nuclear power over indigenous human lives? I almost didn't bother replying to your comment. But indifference to the suffering of "the others" needs to be challenged. Go spend time with literally any indigenous peoples. Learn about their culture and challenges. Meet individual indigenous people, look them in the eyes, then tell me their lives have no value. Would it be acceptable to say this about any other ethnicity? For example, would it be OK to end a sentence "...ask yourself some tricky questions about how much you value Jewish lives" ? What about Muslim lives? No, of course it wouldn't. "Obviously labour camps of Uyghur Muslims are not ideal, but you gotta ask yourself tricky questions about how much you value Uyghur lives over profit." That is an absurd statement and so is yours.

perl4ever 6y ago
The comment you are responding to didn't express indifference to "indigenous lives", but attributed it to others. Attacking them as though they said people shouldn't care about them seems weird and inappropriate to me. They clearly implied people should, but may not.
- hirsin 6y ago
  Thank you. Yes, that was my point.
barrkel 6y ago
> human life > profits We shouldn't have cars then, or motorcycles. We definitely shouldn't have horse riding schools - horse riding is 20x more dangerous than riding a motorcycle, and the only reason you start a business offering it is to profit, thus you're profiting off human death. Right?
- sfblah 6y ago

perl4ever 6y ago

Highly radioactive materials are couriered around all the time for medical purposes. Edit: my point being, dangerously radioactive materials are valuable products of nuclear power, not just pollution that comes as a side effect.

dmix 6y ago

> how much you value indigenous lives over corporations... Why is this the dichotomy for supporting modern nuclear power plants? Or in this case a uranium processing plants? Especially compared to burning burning and mining coal.

hirsin 6y ago
It's not. The point is that antagonists of nuclear power need scary scenarios to make it effective, and "poisoning tons of people that you don't care about" isn't one of them.
- jnxx 6y ago
  If you want an argument against new nuclear power, you need to look no further than at the costs of production: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_station#Economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_... That's a projected 92£ per MWh, with likely further costs increases. Compare that to currently around 60€ / MWh for new solar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity

Google234 6y ago

It’s too bad that the anti nuclear green activists succeeded. We could be on our way to achieving a realistic 0 carbon future by now.