5 ms·

As a reminder, in 2017 UCSF offshored all of its IT staff to HCL Technologies and forced their then-employees to train their replacements before laying them off

by rkho 6y ago

As a reminder, in 2017 UCSF offshored all of its IT staff to HCL Technologies and forced their then-employees to train their replacements before laying them off. They brought the replacements into the Bay Area on H1B temporarily while they were trained by their soon-to-be-laid-off counterparts and then sent back overseas to continue their roles once training was complete. https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/02/28/ucsf-tech-workers-have-last-day-on-job-after-outsourcing/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/02/28/ucsf-tech-worke...

scottwb 6y ago
It wasn’t all IT, not even half.
mc32 6y ago
What kind of monster of an employer makes their employees train the replacements they're getting fired for? If that were me, I'd organize and have everyone quit; let them figure things out. Screw the pittance of a severance.
- PeterStuer 6y ago
  From what i have seen over the years this is an industry standard practice. Don't assume the employees about to be sacked are in the know. Sometimes this is hidden under the guise of big IT modernization projects. The company transitions or consolidates towards ERP platform X. It is a huge operation that touches almost every part of the business. Armies of analysts are brought in to map the AS-IS business operations, the system is developed, once stable enough, the other shoe drops and the whole IT department is now moved off- or near shore to the company that transitioned the system while other 'non-strategic' parts of the business are 'streamlined' into managed service contracts with other parties in the project consortium.
- Ghjklov 6y ago
  Their severance pay was probably on the line...too sad
- voodoochicken 6y ago
  Disney did this same thing: https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-disney-lawsuit-workers-20180508-story.html https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-disne...
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  > I'd organize and have everyone quit; let them figure things out. Be careful here... due to "freedom to choose" legislation targeting unions, it may be illegal for you to "organize labor" in your state...
- throwaway87634 6y ago
  Heard firsthand from employees in the pharma industry that were forced to train their replacements that would do the work in India (quality control of medical devices). If they didn't comply they would get fired immediately and not get a special severance package... most of them did comply and trained their replacements because the job market was bad.
milofeynman 6y ago
Someone, somewhere, is calculating whether the ransomware line item was worth the offshoring and laying off local employees line item.
- castratikron 6y ago
  What would it mean if it was?
- what_ever 6y ago
  While what they did was may not be right, is there any direct link about this to work done by HCL? Have all of such previous attacks been linked to work done by H1Bs?
ahi 6y ago
How the heck did they qualify for H1Bs when they were replacing already employed Americans? Not only did the H1Bs unemploy citizens, we didn't even get the long term benefits of trained workers living and paying taxes in the States.
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  The H1B system is totally out of wack. One of the many things that we need to tear down and rebuild from scratch in 2020.
- trhway 6y ago
  using H1B for 4 months stint is very strange. It is too valuable a visa slot (significantly oversubscribed lottery usually, at least in the recent years) to be wasted that way. Usually it is done using something like B1 for such a short trips, especially if it is training, etc. I wonder whether the journalists and others did mistake one visa for another, especially given that they naturally wouldn't be privy to such internal details of a 3rd party company like the HCL in this case.
  - rkho 6y ago
    I looked a little more and found this subsequent article talking about it: https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-uc-visas-20170108-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-uc-vi...
  - lyrrad 6y ago
    My understanding is that H1-B's for some educational institutions (and certain affiliated non-profits) are cap exempt.
- seesawtron 6y ago
  but they did get the benefit of cheaper IT workforce? What they did to their existing employees was certainly morally wrong but is outsourcing your IT support to cheaper third party seen as morally wrong too? Isn't that the idea of free captial market? Sure the state didn't get taxes from those employees but state owned university saved costs.
redditmigrant 6y ago
It's tiring to keep hearing these stories and tieing them to H1B. Satya Nadella also started on an H1B, Sundar Pichai did too and so did Andrew Ng. Just those 3 combined have created more jobs than were lost here. So please, stop spreading partial info that creates hate against a whole swathe of people who have come here legally, have contributed extremely productively to this nation in the form of taxes and labor, and would like to be treated with atleast the same level of dignity as any European low skilled person who just got off a boat at Ellis Island.
- basilgohar 6y ago
  I think most of the sentiments here are regarding the abuses of the H1-B program by the American companies and not targeted towards the recipients of the visas themselves. I don't think it's reasonable for people to draw the conclusion that the normal people that were awarded the visas should be to blame.
  - redditmigrant 6y ago
    I do believe that you perhaps aren't tieing the program to the recipients. But I don't think the distinction between the program and the beneficiaries is clear to the average voter who likely hasn't ever met a person on an H1B. When they read these stories their instinctive reaction is jobs going to "other people" and then they vote for people who are against immigration, who are tacitly for xenophobia. You could have called me pessimistic, but we have clear examples now of how xenophobia can resonate and can be built on labor issues.
- rkho 6y ago
  I find it difficult to believe that we read the same article. Based on the specifics of my comment and the context of the article at hand, I don't understand how your point ties to my comment and do not appreciate the insinuation it brings.
- charlchi 6y ago
  This is a labour issue, not an issue of xenophobia. Though I'm sure these companies would love us to believe it's about xenophobia. The breakdown of western labour protections and the march towards near chinese levels of exploitation will likely be overseen by people who claim that western labour protections are racist.
techie128 6y ago
H1B for outsourcing companies has created massive arbitrage opportunities for American companies (primary non-tech). They find it cheaper to off shore their IT operations. H1B has a lot of "loop holes" that benefit employers. They're as follows: 1. H1B ties employees to a specific employer. This bonded labor prevents free labor movement. This allows the employer to exert tremendous control over the employee. Free labor movement is important to discourage employers from depressing wages for American workers. 2. H1B is allowed to participate in the EVC model. This would be fine if the H1B was not tied to the employer and instead it belonged to the employee. In absence of this, it explicitly allows exploitation of H1B workers hurting American employees. 3. H1B is dual-intent non-immigrant visa and is the first step to permanent residence. The employer dangles this carrot and exerts further control over employees. The long wait times (on the order of a decade or longer) due to the greencard backlog for certain countries (primarily India, China, etc.) make it worse. More importantly, the employer can rescind the application throughout this process and completely destroy the employee's professional and personal life. 4. Outsourcing companies will not start the greencard process for H1B employees until they're in the 5th year of H1B. Combine this with the 10+ years wait for certain employees, ties the employee to the employer for at least 15 years. 5. Until recently, employers could've rescinded the H1B any time and the employee had to exit the country immediately (no grace period). It was only recently that the US government gave a 60 day grace period for H1B visa holders. Imagine how a human being would feel if they have lived in the country for a decade, making their lives here, having to wind up and leave within a few days or even 60 days. Its simply inhuman. However, this is where we are right now. This issue is more nuanced than it looks like but the underlying problem is due to the fact that the H1B visas and permanent residence process is tied to employers. If we look at visa programs in pretty much any other country, visas belong to employees, their PR process is between the government and the individual applying for the PR. The employer has very little control over the employees. This is why such large scale exploitation doesn't exist in other parts of the world. There have been attempts over the years to fix this issue. The infamous Neufeld memo tried to eliminate the EVC model. Unfortunately, that did not fly and was eventually rescinded. Honestly, a tiny percentage of H1Bs are used by tech companies that genuinely treat their employees well. If you eliminate the bottom 80% of the H1B employees, EVC companies will shut shop and you'll also hurt foreign new grads.

by rkho 6y ago

scottwb 6y ago

It wasn’t all IT, not even half.

mc32 6y ago

What kind of monster of an employer makes their employees train the replacements they're getting fired for? If that were me, I'd organize and have everyone quit; let them figure things out. Screw the pittance of a severance.

PeterStuer 6y ago
From what i have seen over the years this is an industry standard practice. Don't assume the employees about to be sacked are in the know. Sometimes this is hidden under the guise of big IT modernization projects. The company transitions or consolidates towards ERP platform X. It is a huge operation that touches almost every part of the business. Armies of analysts are brought in to map the AS-IS business operations, the system is developed, once stable enough, the other shoe drops and the whole IT department is now moved off- or near shore to the company that transitioned the system while other 'non-strategic' parts of the business are 'streamlined' into managed service contracts with other parties in the project consortium.
Ghjklov 6y ago
Their severance pay was probably on the line...too sad
voodoochicken 6y ago
Disney did this same thing: https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-disney-lawsuit-workers-20180508-story.html https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-disne...
WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
> I'd organize and have everyone quit; let them figure things out. Be careful here... due to "freedom to choose" legislation targeting unions, it may be illegal for you to "organize labor" in your state...
throwaway87634 6y ago
Heard firsthand from employees in the pharma industry that were forced to train their replacements that would do the work in India (quality control of medical devices). If they didn't comply they would get fired immediately and not get a special severance package... most of them did comply and trained their replacements because the job market was bad.

milofeynman 6y ago

Someone, somewhere, is calculating whether the ransomware line item was worth the offshoring and laying off local employees line item.

castratikron 6y ago
What would it mean if it was?
what_ever 6y ago
While what they did was may not be right, is there any direct link about this to work done by HCL? Have all of such previous attacks been linked to work done by H1Bs?

ahi 6y ago

How the heck did they qualify for H1Bs when they were replacing already employed Americans? Not only did the H1Bs unemploy citizens, we didn't even get the long term benefits of trained workers living and paying taxes in the States.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago
The H1B system is totally out of wack. One of the many things that we need to tear down and rebuild from scratch in 2020.
trhway 6y ago
using H1B for 4 months stint is very strange. It is too valuable a visa slot (significantly oversubscribed lottery usually, at least in the recent years) to be wasted that way. Usually it is done using something like B1 for such a short trips, especially if it is training, etc. I wonder whether the journalists and others did mistake one visa for another, especially given that they naturally wouldn't be privy to such internal details of a 3rd party company like the HCL in this case.
- rkho 6y ago
  I looked a little more and found this subsequent article talking about it: https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-uc-visas-20170108-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-uc-vi...
- lyrrad 6y ago
  My understanding is that H1-B's for some educational institutions (and certain affiliated non-profits) are cap exempt.
seesawtron 6y ago
but they did get the benefit of cheaper IT workforce? What they did to their existing employees was certainly morally wrong but is outsourcing your IT support to cheaper third party seen as morally wrong too? Isn't that the idea of free captial market? Sure the state didn't get taxes from those employees but state owned university saved costs.

redditmigrant 6y ago

It's tiring to keep hearing these stories and tieing them to H1B. Satya Nadella also started on an H1B, Sundar Pichai did too and so did Andrew Ng. Just those 3 combined have created more jobs than were lost here. So please, stop spreading partial info that creates hate against a whole swathe of people who have come here legally, have contributed extremely productively to this nation in the form of taxes and labor, and would like to be treated with atleast the same level of dignity as any European low skilled person who just got off a boat at Ellis Island.

basilgohar 6y ago
I think most of the sentiments here are regarding the abuses of the H1-B program by the American companies and not targeted towards the recipients of the visas themselves. I don't think it's reasonable for people to draw the conclusion that the normal people that were awarded the visas should be to blame.
- redditmigrant 6y ago
  I do believe that you perhaps aren't tieing the program to the recipients. But I don't think the distinction between the program and the beneficiaries is clear to the average voter who likely hasn't ever met a person on an H1B. When they read these stories their instinctive reaction is jobs going to "other people" and then they vote for people who are against immigration, who are tacitly for xenophobia. You could have called me pessimistic, but we have clear examples now of how xenophobia can resonate and can be built on labor issues.
rkho 6y ago
I find it difficult to believe that we read the same article. Based on the specifics of my comment and the context of the article at hand, I don't understand how your point ties to my comment and do not appreciate the insinuation it brings.
charlchi 6y ago
This is a labour issue, not an issue of xenophobia. Though I'm sure these companies would love us to believe it's about xenophobia. The breakdown of western labour protections and the march towards near chinese levels of exploitation will likely be overseen by people who claim that western labour protections are racist.

techie128 6y ago

H1B for outsourcing companies has created massive arbitrage opportunities for American companies (primary non-tech). They find it cheaper to off shore their IT operations. H1B has a lot of "loop holes" that benefit employers. They're as follows: 1. H1B ties employees to a specific employer. This bonded labor prevents free labor movement. This allows the employer to exert tremendous control over the employee. Free labor movement is important to discourage employers from depressing wages for American workers. 2. H1B is allowed to participate in the EVC model. This would be fine if the H1B was not tied to the employer and instead it belonged to the employee. In absence of this, it explicitly allows exploitation of H1B workers hurting American employees. 3. H1B is dual-intent non-immigrant visa and is the first step to permanent residence. The employer dangles this carrot and exerts further control over employees. The long wait times (on the order of a decade or longer) due to the greencard backlog for certain countries (primarily India, China, etc.) make it worse. More importantly, the employer can rescind the application throughout this process and completely destroy the employee's professional and personal life. 4. Outsourcing companies will not start the greencard process for H1B employees until they're in the 5th year of H1B. Combine this with the 10+ years wait for certain employees, ties the employee to the employer for at least 15 years. 5. Until recently, employers could've rescinded the H1B any time and the employee had to exit the country immediately (no grace period). It was only recently that the US government gave a 60 day grace period for H1B visa holders. Imagine how a human being would feel if they have lived in the country for a decade, making their lives here, having to wind up and leave within a few days or even 60 days. Its simply inhuman. However, this is where we are right now. This issue is more nuanced than it looks like but the underlying problem is due to the fact that the H1B visas and permanent residence process is tied to employers. If we look at visa programs in pretty much any other country, visas belong to employees, their PR process is between the government and the individual applying for the PR. The employer has very little control over the employees. This is why such large scale exploitation doesn't exist in other parts of the world. There have been attempts over the years to fix this issue. The infamous Neufeld memo tried to eliminate the EVC model. Unfortunately, that did not fly and was eventually rescinded. Honestly, a tiny percentage of H1Bs are used by tech companies that genuinely treat their employees well. If you eliminate the bottom 80% of the H1B employees, EVC companies will shut shop and you'll also hurt foreign new grads.