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I prefer that comment to your reply. By a lot. It attempted to apply reason. You only mocked the form the arguments took. I am firmly of the opinion that co

by btilly 6y ago

I prefer that comment to your reply. By a lot. It attempted to apply reason. You only mocked the form the arguments took. I am firmly of the opinion that content is more important than form. That comment did make a major mistake. Arch Linux is not a source distribution. But the mistake notwithstanding, it was otherwise well-reasoned. Your response was not. You can mock the point that there is still a benefit in sharing a library a few times, and the article ignored the few libraries that get shared a lot. But said point remains true. You may think that Android isn't relevant to the article's point. But the tradeoffs between static and dynamic linking are true across operating systems. The challenges that Android has had because of static linking are therefore worth paying attention to. Refusing to look for parallels to inform your intuition from is simply refusal to learn.

saagarjha 6y ago
> I am firmly of the opinion that content is more important than form. This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have heard this year. How could you possibly have come up with something that brain-dead? Is this how you normally are, or did you have to reach deep into your mind to find the most inane thing you could possibly say and pollute Hacker News with it? Goodness, I hope so. I don't even want to think about the possibility that you are this clueless in real life. I pity those that have to interact with you. Delivery matters, and content does too. IMO sometimes the information you're conveying can make up for form-many disagree, however, and I'm sure you're aware of this. But there are no absolutes here; sometimes form is more important than content. (And to round out this comment, I thought the one being discussed was fine as I mention in another comment. I'm sometimes accused of being too harsh myself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23354453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23354453)
- spacechild1 6y ago
  You're being unnecessarily rude.
  - kick 6y ago
    The point of the first half of his comment was very obviously pointing out that "form is less important than content" is wrong; Saagar wasn't doing it for no reason, and wasn't doing it in bad faith. That's why it was in an entirely different tone than the rest of the comment, and just about every other comment he's ever made on this site.
    - spacechild1 6y ago
      Oh, I see. Sarcasm on the internet can be tricky. (There are many people who actually write like that, or much worse.)
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        I tried my best to make it really over-the-top, but sadly there are people who write that way unironically on the Internet and so Poe's law applied :(
- loeg 6y ago
  The content here is you being an ass.
- btilly 6y ago
  This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have heard this year. How could you possibly have come up with something that brain-dead? That is an opinion. It is your opinion. I happen to have a very different opinion. It may be surprising to you, but surprise doesn't mean that it is trivially wrong. Experience has taught me that if you have good content, then you have something worthwhile to say if I can get past the form. But, by contrast, someone who only has good form has nothing worthwhile to say. The more I you dig in, the less value that there is to find. Obviously having both form and content is better than only having one. But if I have to choose one, I will choose to surround myself with people who have good content. Every time. Is this how you normally are, or did you have to reach deep into your mind to find the most inane thing you could possibly say and pollute Hacker News with it? Goodness, I hope so. I don't even want to think about the possibility that you are this clueless in real life. I pity those that have to interact with you. If you're curious, you can always find out more about me. My online profile goes back quite far. A few random things that I've written include https://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=59345 https://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=59345, http://elem.com/~btilly/effective-ab-testing/ http://elem.com/~btilly/effective-ab-testing/, and the answers at https://stackoverflow.com/users/585411/btilly?tab=answers https://stackoverflow.com/users/585411/btilly?tab=answers. Or you can go with your already formed opinion. It is no skin off my back.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    I have read a lot of your writing, much more than you've linked here, simply by being active on this site for just over three years. While I don't really think I could say I know you personally, I think I have at least a little bit of context about you, what your interests are, and what you like to talk about. Your comments have been consistently useful and relevant, and I have no complaints there. But back to the topic: form and content are not a zero-sum game. You can be eloquent and polite while also conveying useful information, as you mention yourself. You can find people who do this, and it's not a big deal if you're trying to do it yourself. Honestly. If you think about it, the reason I'm replying to you (and why I stick around in some threads and leave others) is both the content and the way it's dicussed: I usually stop interacting when people start hurling insults, because it's just exhausting to deal with it for extended periods of time. It's part of the reason why I occasionally leave Reddit frustrated, why I'm not on Twitter, and why I let other people pull information out of Slashdot and 4chan for me. Really, if I can find one person who says something useful but surrounds it with vicious barbs, and another who can say the same thing but without the acid, why wouldn't I want to go with them? If I can only find the latter, perhaps I'm with the wrong people. And again, I do personally make some concessions for people I truly do think have exceptional content–but again, these are some concessions. Even Linus–who is usually the poster child of the "who cares how you say it?", who is exceedingly bright and talented, and who is basically a "equal opportunity abuser"–could probably tone it down some. When he is right it's just extra verbiage I need to scroll through and ignore, and when he's wrong (and he is for some things) it just makes him sound extra rude.
- cryptonector 6y ago
  > This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have heard this year. I doubt any comment in this thread could possibly be the stupidest thing any of us has heard or read in 2020.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Probably not, but considering my comment was confusing to at least four people here perhaps it might be one of the stupider ones.
kick 6y ago
the article ignored the few libraries that get shared a lot The author didn't ignore this, because it's pretty much false. Every package people insisted was relevant, he shot down before he published the article. Example: https://cmpwn.com/@sir/104406644780241359 https://cmpwn.com/@sir/104406644780241359 Hitchen's razor.
- tomjakubowski 6y ago
  > Of the 2188 packages I have installed, 70 of them depend on OpenSSL. This must not be counting packages which depend on openssl by a chain of dependencies, some number of which contain binaries or libraries which link libssl. On my desktop Arch system of 1448 packages, 42 depend directly on openssl and 672 depend on it directly or indirectly. (pactree -ur openssl | wc -l, then subtract one for openssl itself)

by btilly 6y ago

saagarjha 6y ago

> I am firmly of the opinion that content is more important than form. This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have heard this year. How could you possibly have come up with something that brain-dead? Is this how you normally are, or did you have to reach deep into your mind to find the most inane thing you could possibly say and pollute Hacker News with it? Goodness, I hope so. I don't even want to think about the possibility that you are this clueless in real life. I pity those that have to interact with you. Delivery matters, and content does too. IMO sometimes the information you're conveying can make up for form-many disagree, however, and I'm sure you're aware of this. But there are no absolutes here; sometimes form is more important than content. (And to round out this comment, I thought the one being discussed was fine as I mention in another comment. I'm sometimes accused of being too harsh myself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23354453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23354453)

spacechild1 6y ago
You're being unnecessarily rude.
- kick 6y ago
  The point of the first half of his comment was very obviously pointing out that "form is less important than content" is wrong; Saagar wasn't doing it for no reason, and wasn't doing it in bad faith. That's why it was in an entirely different tone than the rest of the comment, and just about every other comment he's ever made on this site.
  - spacechild1 6y ago
    Oh, I see. Sarcasm on the internet can be tricky. (There are many people who actually write like that, or much worse.)
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      I tried my best to make it really over-the-top, but sadly there are people who write that way unironically on the Internet and so Poe's law applied :(
loeg 6y ago
The content here is you being an ass.
btilly 6y ago
This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have heard this year. How could you possibly have come up with something that brain-dead? That is an opinion. It is your opinion. I happen to have a very different opinion. It may be surprising to you, but surprise doesn't mean that it is trivially wrong. Experience has taught me that if you have good content, then you have something worthwhile to say if I can get past the form. But, by contrast, someone who only has good form has nothing worthwhile to say. The more I you dig in, the less value that there is to find. Obviously having both form and content is better than only having one. But if I have to choose one, I will choose to surround myself with people who have good content. Every time. Is this how you normally are, or did you have to reach deep into your mind to find the most inane thing you could possibly say and pollute Hacker News with it? Goodness, I hope so. I don't even want to think about the possibility that you are this clueless in real life. I pity those that have to interact with you. If you're curious, you can always find out more about me. My online profile goes back quite far. A few random things that I've written include https://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=59345 https://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=59345, http://elem.com/~btilly/effective-ab-testing/ http://elem.com/~btilly/effective-ab-testing/, and the answers at https://stackoverflow.com/users/585411/btilly?tab=answers https://stackoverflow.com/users/585411/btilly?tab=answers. Or you can go with your already formed opinion. It is no skin off my back.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  I have read a lot of your writing, much more than you've linked here, simply by being active on this site for just over three years. While I don't really think I could say I know you personally, I think I have at least a little bit of context about you, what your interests are, and what you like to talk about. Your comments have been consistently useful and relevant, and I have no complaints there. But back to the topic: form and content are not a zero-sum game. You can be eloquent and polite while also conveying useful information, as you mention yourself. You can find people who do this, and it's not a big deal if you're trying to do it yourself. Honestly. If you think about it, the reason I'm replying to you (and why I stick around in some threads and leave others) is both the content and the way it's dicussed: I usually stop interacting when people start hurling insults, because it's just exhausting to deal with it for extended periods of time. It's part of the reason why I occasionally leave Reddit frustrated, why I'm not on Twitter, and why I let other people pull information out of Slashdot and 4chan for me. Really, if I can find one person who says something useful but surrounds it with vicious barbs, and another who can say the same thing but without the acid, why wouldn't I want to go with them? If I can only find the latter, perhaps I'm with the wrong people. And again, I do personally make some concessions for people I truly do think have exceptional content–but again, these are some concessions. Even Linus–who is usually the poster child of the "who cares how you say it?", who is exceedingly bright and talented, and who is basically a "equal opportunity abuser"–could probably tone it down some. When he is right it's just extra verbiage I need to scroll through and ignore, and when he's wrong (and he is for some things) it just makes him sound extra rude.
cryptonector 6y ago
> This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have heard this year. I doubt any comment in this thread could possibly be the stupidest thing any of us has heard or read in 2020.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Probably not, but considering my comment was confusing to at least four people here perhaps it might be one of the stupider ones.

kick 6y ago

the article ignored the few libraries that get shared a lot The author didn't ignore this, because it's pretty much false. Every package people insisted was relevant, he shot down before he published the article. Example: https://cmpwn.com/@sir/104406644780241359 https://cmpwn.com/@sir/104406644780241359 Hitchen's razor.

tomjakubowski 6y ago
> Of the 2188 packages I have installed, 70 of them depend on OpenSSL. This must not be counting packages which depend on openssl by a chain of dependencies, some number of which contain binaries or libraries which link libssl. On my desktop Arch system of 1448 packages, 42 depend directly on openssl and 672 depend on it directly or indirectly. (pactree -ur openssl | wc -l, then subtract one for openssl itself)