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I think you make a good point about the need for law enforcement in high-crime areas, though I disagree strongly that the only solution to that problem is a pol

I think you make a good point about the need for law enforcement in high-crime areas, though I disagree strongly that the only solution to that problem is a police force as currently constituted in the US. I think it's worth pointing out that police often has abysmal clearance rates and response times and often do not provide effective relief from the real problems you outline. However, what I wanted to raise was this: > the fact is... violent (fatal and nonfatal) crimes do happen at a much higher rate in poor neighborhoods I think this statement is worth examining. We certainly know that poor neighborhoods contact the police more often and that the police arrest more people (and record more crimes) in poor neighborhoods. As I said above, I have ever reason to believe residents of poor neighborhoods suffer crimes more often and that each crime does proportionally greater damage to their lives. I also think that, as people get access to more resources, they are reasons to believe they are less likely to contact the police in all circumstances. That, of course, is the other way to read the stats you linked about poor neighborhoods contacting police. Police clearance rates are often low and contacting the police rarely directly addresses the harm caused by a crime. Also, because we are most likely to be harmed by people in our social circles, wealthier people are more likely to be harmed by more powerful people. These are all reasons that wealthier victims of crimes might choose not to contact the police and generate statistics about them. It's difficult to point to data about what isn't recorded (of course), but I think the feminist movement has done some great work trying to document how under-reported rapes (and other sexual crimes) are. I just want to encourage skepticism about the systems through which data is collected. Structural elements strongly bias the data that's collected and, if we're serious about changing the system, I think it's advantageous to be skeptical of every element of the system.

DuskStar 6y ago
> > the fact is... violent (fatal and nonfatal) crimes do happen at a much higher rate in poor neighborhoods > I think this statement is worth examining. Are you trying to suggest that there are a large number of unreported, undiscovered murders in more affluent areas? Because that's one of the the kinds of violent crime that we're pretty sure happen disproportionately in poor or black communities. (you're more likely to be murdered if you're poor, and more likely to be murdered if you're black, with IIRC the richest 20% of blacks still being murdered more often than the poorest 20% of non-hispanic whites)
- aeturnum 6y ago
  > Are you trying to suggest that there are a large number of unreported, undiscovered murders in more affluent areas? No. I didn't mention murders - is there a reason you're focused on them? I'm saying that the same forces the put poor communities of color at risk for crime also likely disrupt the collection of statistics in more wealthy & powerful communities. This is important because both sides of the ratio matter. I believe there's more crime in vulnerable communities and I believe that we likely over-estimate how much more. This generates statistics that support the over-policing of poor communities.
  - DuskStar 6y ago
    > No. I didn't mention murders - is there a reason you're focused on them? I focused on murders because the grandparent DID mention them, and because murder rate is much less exposed to reporting bias than other crimes.
    - aeturnum 6y ago
      That makes sense, but that's also why I pulled out the absolutest statement about all violent crime. I agree that murder is one of the crimes least likely to go unreported, but they are still subject to the same pressures (even if those pressures are less efficacious). I'd be interested to see, for instance, if the ratio of murders to missing people changes as you move up the socioeconomic ladder.
      - DuskStar 6y ago
        That's a ratio I'd also like to see. But there's another ratio - violent crimes per murder. If there's 100 assaults for every murder in wealthy white communities, and 100 assaults for every murder in poor black communities, that ALSO tells us something. Murders are harder to skew. That means that you should focus MORE on those statistics, not less.

DuskStar 6y ago

> > the fact is... violent (fatal and nonfatal) crimes do happen at a much higher rate in poor neighborhoods > I think this statement is worth examining. Are you trying to suggest that there are a large number of unreported, undiscovered murders in more affluent areas? Because that's one of the the kinds of violent crime that we're pretty sure happen disproportionately in poor or black communities. (you're more likely to be murdered if you're poor, and more likely to be murdered if you're black, with IIRC the richest 20% of blacks still being murdered more often than the poorest 20% of non-hispanic whites)

aeturnum 6y ago
> Are you trying to suggest that there are a large number of unreported, undiscovered murders in more affluent areas? No. I didn't mention murders - is there a reason you're focused on them? I'm saying that the same forces the put poor communities of color at risk for crime also likely disrupt the collection of statistics in more wealthy & powerful communities. This is important because both sides of the ratio matter. I believe there's more crime in vulnerable communities and I believe that we likely over-estimate how much more. This generates statistics that support the over-policing of poor communities.
- DuskStar 6y ago
  > No. I didn't mention murders - is there a reason you're focused on them? I focused on murders because the grandparent DID mention them, and because murder rate is much less exposed to reporting bias than other crimes.
  - aeturnum 6y ago
    That makes sense, but that's also why I pulled out the absolutest statement about all violent crime. I agree that murder is one of the crimes least likely to go unreported, but they are still subject to the same pressures (even if those pressures are less efficacious). I'd be interested to see, for instance, if the ratio of murders to missing people changes as you move up the socioeconomic ladder.
    - DuskStar 6y ago
      That's a ratio I'd also like to see. But there's another ratio - violent crimes per murder. If there's 100 assaults for every murder in wealthy white communities, and 100 assaults for every murder in poor black communities, that ALSO tells us something. Murders are harder to skew. That means that you should focus MORE on those statistics, not less.