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This is an argument that I think too often goes unexamined. Yes, the state obviously depends on a monopoly on violence to sustain itself, but that monopoly alon

This is an argument that I think too often goes unexamined. Yes, the state obviously depends on a monopoly on violence to sustain itself, but that monopoly alone is not sufficient. After all, in order for the state to exercise violence, individual people need to agree to exert violence on the state’s behalf. The authority to deploy violence in a culturally sanctioned manner can’t come from violence itself. For people to agree that the state has the sole right to deploy violence, there must be a more fundamental source of legitimacy. For example, you could argue that the murder of the Gracchi was the beginning of the end for the Roman republic: once it became clear that the government was no longer playing by the rules and might really did make right, the republic’s legitimacy was fatally weakened. Before long you get a generation of civil war and the end of the republic.

zozbot234 6y ago
> For people to agree that the state has the sole right to deploy violence, there must be a more fundamental source of legitimacy. Having a stable monopoly on violence is generally in the involved parties' shared best interest, so a Schelling point (perhaps weighted by some expectation of shared future benefits) is as much of a source of "legitimacy" as anyone needs. When that process of agreeing on a single Schelling point fails due to excess ambiguity - well, then you might have some real trouble on your hands.
- smogcutter 6y ago
  Agreed, but an issue with a game theoretical explanation like that is it doesn’t account for the way that the kind of government people will agree on is highly culturally contingent. In other words it explains why people will get around to forming any government, but says little about how specific governments function (or fail to). To stick with Rome for example, it doesn’t explain why Augustus could rule as Princeps but would’ve lasted five minutes if he’d tried to rule as an eastern style despot. My real point, rather than trying to articulate a complete theory of statehood in some cockamamie HN post, is to push back against the common formulation that finds the source of state power in state violence. The real story is meaningfully more complex.
  - 0x8BADF00D 6y ago
    What you’re missing is that violence itself is an enforcement of state power. There is a reason why people carry weapons in CHAZ. In a power vacuum, the group that has the most weapons will be the de facto ruler of the area. For instance, Somalia does have a formal government, but without violence such a state does not exist in reality. Another way to phrase it is, in the words of Bret Weinstein, police brutality is a feature, not a bug.
    - zozbot234 6y ago
      Police brutality is a bug, at least most of the time. The best de-facto rulers are quite aware that it's enough to speak softly and carry a big stick. If you're brutal to others for no real reason, this will be seen as a reason to deter you from exerting that brutality. It's a good thing that we have robust institutions that allow people to do that peacefully.
    - smogcutter 6y ago
      No, I’m not missing that. To quote myself: “the state obviously depends on a monopoly on violence to sustain itself.” The point is that violence is not the source of state power, but its instrument. This is a real distinction, not just word games, and it often gets elided when people talk about the state as a monopoly on violence. You said it yourself: “In a power vacuum, the group that has the most weapons...” Violence reigns in the absence of state legitimacy. Governments that forget this tend to fall into chaos, lawlessness and corruption. For example, Somalia. Or read Fire in the Lake for an examination of the way all the violence in the world couldn’t make up for the lack of legitimacy of the US-backed South Vietnamese government. When Weber is talking about the state being defined by a monopoly on violence, he’s talking about the definition of the modern state as opposed to the pre-modern, not an inherent feature of all human organization and government. The medieval king, for example, certainly didn’t hold a monopoly on violence.
      - 0x8BADF00D 6y ago
        > The medieval king, for example, certainly didn’t hold a monopoly on violence. He did indirectly, through the concept of divine right. This power was so immense, that a single king could wage war against an entire religion, as in the Crusades. If that isn't monopoly on violence, I don't know what is.

zozbot234 6y ago

> For people to agree that the state has the sole right to deploy violence, there must be a more fundamental source of legitimacy. Having a stable monopoly on violence is generally in the involved parties' shared best interest, so a Schelling point (perhaps weighted by some expectation of shared future benefits) is as much of a source of "legitimacy" as anyone needs. When that process of agreeing on a single Schelling point fails due to excess ambiguity - well, then you might have some real trouble on your hands.

smogcutter 6y ago
Agreed, but an issue with a game theoretical explanation like that is it doesn’t account for the way that the kind of government people will agree on is highly culturally contingent. In other words it explains why people will get around to forming any government, but says little about how specific governments function (or fail to). To stick with Rome for example, it doesn’t explain why Augustus could rule as Princeps but would’ve lasted five minutes if he’d tried to rule as an eastern style despot. My real point, rather than trying to articulate a complete theory of statehood in some cockamamie HN post, is to push back against the common formulation that finds the source of state power in state violence. The real story is meaningfully more complex.
- 0x8BADF00D 6y ago
  What you’re missing is that violence itself is an enforcement of state power. There is a reason why people carry weapons in CHAZ. In a power vacuum, the group that has the most weapons will be the de facto ruler of the area. For instance, Somalia does have a formal government, but without violence such a state does not exist in reality. Another way to phrase it is, in the words of Bret Weinstein, police brutality is a feature, not a bug.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    Police brutality is a bug, at least most of the time. The best de-facto rulers are quite aware that it's enough to speak softly and carry a big stick. If you're brutal to others for no real reason, this will be seen as a reason to deter you from exerting that brutality. It's a good thing that we have robust institutions that allow people to do that peacefully.
  - smogcutter 6y ago
    No, I’m not missing that. To quote myself: “the state obviously depends on a monopoly on violence to sustain itself.” The point is that violence is not the source of state power, but its instrument. This is a real distinction, not just word games, and it often gets elided when people talk about the state as a monopoly on violence. You said it yourself: “In a power vacuum, the group that has the most weapons...” Violence reigns in the absence of state legitimacy. Governments that forget this tend to fall into chaos, lawlessness and corruption. For example, Somalia. Or read Fire in the Lake for an examination of the way all the violence in the world couldn’t make up for the lack of legitimacy of the US-backed South Vietnamese government. When Weber is talking about the state being defined by a monopoly on violence, he’s talking about the definition of the modern state as opposed to the pre-modern, not an inherent feature of all human organization and government. The medieval king, for example, certainly didn’t hold a monopoly on violence.
    - 0x8BADF00D 6y ago
      > The medieval king, for example, certainly didn’t hold a monopoly on violence. He did indirectly, through the concept of divine right. This power was so immense, that a single king could wage war against an entire religion, as in the Crusades. If that isn't monopoly on violence, I don't know what is.