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But "abolish the police" isn't jibberish, and is what some people actually, literally, mean. So how can I tell?

ashtonkem 6y ago
How can you tell what’s an idiom, and what isn’t? Context clues. Do the same thing here. Or, actually listen to people. Your call.
- rbecker 6y ago
  So when I see someone on TV holding an "abolish the police" banner, which context clues should I use to figure out what they really mean? The slogan makes many people think you're advocating an unreasonable idea that you're not actually advocating. Do you think that makes for a good slogan? Edit: I apologize. I missed where you said it's a bad slogan, and took your defense of it as implying it's good.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    I’ve made it clear I think it’s a bad slogan, why are you insisting on the contrary?
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > So when I see someone on TV holding an "abolish the police" banner, which context clues should I use to figure out what they really mean? The same ones you use to understand what the word "police" means. Human language isn't a direct, thought transmission mechanism (especially with short utterances). Ambiguity and uncertainty and reliance on shared context are inherent. The artificial language Toki Pona gives an exaggerated demonstration of this [1]. > The slogan makes many people think you're advocating an unreasonable idea that you're not actually advocating. Do you think that makes for a good slogan? No one can ever cram the nuance of a complex political position onto a slogan to fit on a sign. Inevitably someone will misunderstand to some degree, then have to go on to read one of the hundreds of articles titled "what does 'defund the police' mean?" to correct your misunderstanding. If you're searching for some optimal slogan, you're not going to find it. Sure there are alternatives, but a couple things count in "defund the police"'s favor: 1) it succinctly indicates the topic and 2) pretty clearly conveys the opinion that a radical break with prior reform efforts is needed. "Abolish the police" does the same, except it's more amplified. [1] https://www.theallusionist.org/allusionist/tokipona https://www.theallusionist.org/allusionist/tokipona
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
godelski 6y ago
> So how can I tell? In communication as the recipient your job is to try to understand what is meant, not what is said. Conversely, as the communicator, your job is to say what you mean, and ensure what is said is in line with what is meant. The added complexity is that to do this you need to have a decent grasp on what recipients will hear (as in "understand intent," as opposed to the literal words that they physically hear)

How can you tell what’s an idiom, and what isn’t? Context clues. Do the same thing here. Or, actually listen to people. Your call.

rbecker 6y ago
So when I see someone on TV holding an "abolish the police" banner, which context clues should I use to figure out what they really mean? The slogan makes many people think you're advocating an unreasonable idea that you're not actually advocating. Do you think that makes for a good slogan? Edit: I apologize. I missed where you said it's a bad slogan, and took your defense of it as implying it's good.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  I’ve made it clear I think it’s a bad slogan, why are you insisting on the contrary?
- ardy42 6y ago
  > So when I see someone on TV holding an "abolish the police" banner, which context clues should I use to figure out what they really mean? The same ones you use to understand what the word "police" means. Human language isn't a direct, thought transmission mechanism (especially with short utterances). Ambiguity and uncertainty and reliance on shared context are inherent. The artificial language Toki Pona gives an exaggerated demonstration of this [1]. > The slogan makes many people think you're advocating an unreasonable idea that you're not actually advocating. Do you think that makes for a good slogan? No one can ever cram the nuance of a complex political position onto a slogan to fit on a sign. Inevitably someone will misunderstand to some degree, then have to go on to read one of the hundreds of articles titled "what does 'defund the police' mean?" to correct your misunderstanding. If you're searching for some optimal slogan, you're not going to find it. Sure there are alternatives, but a couple things count in "defund the police"'s favor: 1) it succinctly indicates the topic and 2) pretty clearly conveys the opinion that a radical break with prior reform efforts is needed. "Abolish the police" does the same, except it's more amplified. [1] https://www.theallusionist.org/allusionist/tokipona https://www.theallusionist.org/allusionist/tokipona
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

godelski 6y ago

> So how can I tell? In communication as the recipient your job is to try to understand what is meant, not what is said. Conversely, as the communicator, your job is to say what you mean, and ensure what is said is in line with what is meant. The added complexity is that to do this you need to have a decent grasp on what recipients will hear (as in "understand intent," as opposed to the literal words that they physically hear)