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We recently figured out that a major problem with the SIAI Visiting Fellows program has been that we don't give Visiting Fellows a context in which they know ho

by Eliezer 16y ago

We recently figured out that a major problem with the SIAI Visiting Fellows program has been that we don't give Visiting Fellows a context in which they know how well they're doing - they're picking up rationality tricks of the trade, but there's no counter that goes up when they do. I suspect that rich people who aren't just measuring their progress by net assets, acquire this problem with their entire lives - now that they're not holding down a job, they no longer have any sense of what constitutes "progress". Existential angst mostly just consists of having one or more problems you don't know how to identify ("My life lacks obvious progress indicators" having not even occurred to you as a hypothesis for describing what's wrong) and so you find that everything you do to try to address the problems you think you have, never solves the real problem. http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/. If there's anyone out there who's reading this and thinking "Yes, that's me", you can go ahead and email me (Eliezer Yudkowsky) because problems like this really should be solvable. Similarly, now that we've figured out what was wrong with the Visiting Fellows program we're going to try to fix it, etcetera.

astrofinch 16y ago
Another possible problem with the Visiting Fellows program is that you're selecting for fairly unambitious/non-driven people. See this Less Wrong thread: http://lesswrong.com/lw/4wm/rationality_boot_camp/3qmd http://lesswrong.com/lw/4wm/rationality_boot_camp/3qmd And this Robin Hanson blog post: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/lazy-hurt-less-than-stupid.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/lazy-hurt-less-than-st... (Which suggests that the personality development agenda the Visiting Fellows program is currently pursuing may not succeed in transforming Visiting Fellows in to folks who are more driven and productive.) I and at least 2 other people who have had a decent amount of direct contact with the Visiting Fellows agree on this. Of course, another possibility is to make being a Visiting Fellow more like having a job--even relatively non-driven folks seem to be able to frequently get stuff done in job-like contexts. It's just that the portion of the population that's able to succeed in deadline-free not-intrinsically-fun self-directed activity seems to be pretty low. (And FWIW Eliezer, I am pretty sure you are part of this portion of the population--the fact that you're frequently disappointed with the amount you get done is a strong indicator. The real problem is when a person isn't disappointed with the amount they get done because their bar for themselves isn't set very high.)
gnosis 16y ago
"Existential angst mostly just consists of having one or more problems you don't know how to identify ("My life lacks obvious progress indicators" having not even occurred to you as a hypothesis for describing what's wrong)" This has nothing to do with existentialism, much less existential angst. Don't know where you got this definition.
- oconnor0 16y ago
  Can you explain in more detail what you disagree with and why?
- derefr 16y ago
  I believe he was using it as a synonym for ennui.
lisper 16y ago
http://rondam.blogspot.com/2011/02/hardest-part-of-getting-what-you-want.html http://rondam.blogspot.com/2011/02/hardest-part-of-getting-w...
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
DaniFong 16y ago
It's funny that people consider the thought that they are composed of dancing particles depressing. I mean -- we're made of dancing particles! That's hilarious!
danenania 16y ago
I have experienced a lot of the lack of progress indicator angst you mention. I'm nowhere near rich and it isn't that important of a goal to me in itself, but since leaving college at 19 (I'm nearly 26 now), I haven't had a 9-5 job. I played online poker professionally for 4-5 years and I've been a developer for the last 2. My development work has either been a set my own hours/work from home arrangement or contract work. I'd say the struggle to live with some kind of structure while also maintaining the high level of freedom and flexibility that I can't stand to be without has been the defining challenge of my life so far. I'm very glad that I've been able to get out of the box and do my own thing, but it's also made life a lot more difficult in many ways. It's been harder to develop consistent social circles since these tend to center around college and work. Even though I'm pretty good at making friends, at least for a fairly introverted person, I rarely feel like I really fit with whatever groups I fall in with--I tend to go back and forth between feeling insecure and being bored and annoyed by others' seeming conformity and lack of imagination. A bit of social anxiety is involved as well. I've also never been able to maintain a consistent circadian rhythm. At this point I've just given up on worrying about it and regularly stay up for 30+ hour stretches when I'm not tired or have a lot to do. I've found it easier to just go with it than trying to force myself into the 'normal' way. This also contributes to feeling weird or different from others though--just feels like I'm on another wavelength a lot of the time. Not sure why I decided to share this exactly. I can definitely imagine having a lot of the same issues as a billionaire. I suppose that's why it doesn't seem a particularly worthwhile goal to pursue. I'd rather focus on finding a good creative writing group or learning to meditate or finding a place/way to live that helps me find more balance and belonging. Things that would have a tangible impact on my day to day being. Making a lot of money seems beyond a point to get in the way if anything. I don't know if there's anything in particular to blame, but our society is quite exclusionary in many ways toward folks who go off the beaten path, even if they are otherwise kind and productive people with plenty to offer. Generally reasonable people can be very judgmental about things like not having a college degree or a normal job or typical sleep patterns. I've learned to take it in stride for the most part, but it leaves sort of a bad taste in my mouth. I suppose wealthy people may have to face some irrational prejudice from others as well.
- Retric 16y ago

by Eliezer 16y ago

astrofinch 16y ago

Another possible problem with the Visiting Fellows program is that you're selecting for fairly unambitious/non-driven people. See this Less Wrong thread: http://lesswrong.com/lw/4wm/rationality_boot_camp/3qmd http://lesswrong.com/lw/4wm/rationality_boot_camp/3qmd And this Robin Hanson blog post: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/lazy-hurt-less-than-stupid.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/lazy-hurt-less-than-st... (Which suggests that the personality development agenda the Visiting Fellows program is currently pursuing may not succeed in transforming Visiting Fellows in to folks who are more driven and productive.) I and at least 2 other people who have had a decent amount of direct contact with the Visiting Fellows agree on this. Of course, another possibility is to make being a Visiting Fellow more like having a job--even relatively non-driven folks seem to be able to frequently get stuff done in job-like contexts. It's just that the portion of the population that's able to succeed in deadline-free not-intrinsically-fun self-directed activity seems to be pretty low. (And FWIW Eliezer, I am pretty sure you are part of this portion of the population--the fact that you're frequently disappointed with the amount you get done is a strong indicator. The real problem is when a person isn't disappointed with the amount they get done because their bar for themselves isn't set very high.)

gnosis 16y ago

"Existential angst mostly just consists of having one or more problems you don't know how to identify ("My life lacks obvious progress indicators" having not even occurred to you as a hypothesis for describing what's wrong)" This has nothing to do with existentialism, much less existential angst. Don't know where you got this definition.

oconnor0 16y ago
Can you explain in more detail what you disagree with and why?
derefr 16y ago
I believe he was using it as a synonym for ennui.

lisper 16y ago

http://rondam.blogspot.com/2011/02/hardest-part-of-getting-what-you-want.html http://rondam.blogspot.com/2011/02/hardest-part-of-getting-w...

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

DaniFong 16y ago

It's funny that people consider the thought that they are composed of dancing particles depressing. I mean -- we're made of dancing particles! That's hilarious!

danenania 16y ago

I have experienced a lot of the lack of progress indicator angst you mention. I'm nowhere near rich and it isn't that important of a goal to me in itself, but since leaving college at 19 (I'm nearly 26 now), I haven't had a 9-5 job. I played online poker professionally for 4-5 years and I've been a developer for the last 2. My development work has either been a set my own hours/work from home arrangement or contract work. I'd say the struggle to live with some kind of structure while also maintaining the high level of freedom and flexibility that I can't stand to be without has been the defining challenge of my life so far. I'm very glad that I've been able to get out of the box and do my own thing, but it's also made life a lot more difficult in many ways. It's been harder to develop consistent social circles since these tend to center around college and work. Even though I'm pretty good at making friends, at least for a fairly introverted person, I rarely feel like I really fit with whatever groups I fall in with--I tend to go back and forth between feeling insecure and being bored and annoyed by others' seeming conformity and lack of imagination. A bit of social anxiety is involved as well. I've also never been able to maintain a consistent circadian rhythm. At this point I've just given up on worrying about it and regularly stay up for 30+ hour stretches when I'm not tired or have a lot to do. I've found it easier to just go with it than trying to force myself into the 'normal' way. This also contributes to feeling weird or different from others though--just feels like I'm on another wavelength a lot of the time. Not sure why I decided to share this exactly. I can definitely imagine having a lot of the same issues as a billionaire. I suppose that's why it doesn't seem a particularly worthwhile goal to pursue. I'd rather focus on finding a good creative writing group or learning to meditate or finding a place/way to live that helps me find more balance and belonging. Things that would have a tangible impact on my day to day being. Making a lot of money seems beyond a point to get in the way if anything. I don't know if there's anything in particular to blame, but our society is quite exclusionary in many ways toward folks who go off the beaten path, even if they are otherwise kind and productive people with plenty to offer. Generally reasonable people can be very judgmental about things like not having a college degree or a normal job or typical sleep patterns. I've learned to take it in stride for the most part, but it leaves sort of a bad taste in my mouth. I suppose wealthy people may have to face some irrational prejudice from others as well.

Retric 16y ago