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Err... I think you're taking an extremely narrow job market view of a PhD... ie., one which is actually useful for a job market. Sure, in some research-driven

Err... I think you're taking an extremely narrow job market view of a PhD... ie., one which is actually useful for a job market. Sure, in some research-driven and high-complexity industrial areas there's a very severe shortage of talent in general. You don't get programmers being paid 200k without a real-terms shortage, let alone programmers with PhDs in, eg., algorithmic research. My point was about the university system, as a closed system. That is what the OP comment is talking about. The only use of a cultural criticsm PhD is a job teaching that subject. There aren't any. Last time I checked there were TWO job openings in the entirety of the united kingdom for a postdoc job requiring a philosophy PhD. The university is, at this point, just a scam. For almost all students. The 1-5% who get some use out of it, and who always got some use out of it, should continue to go.

throwawaygh 6y ago
That's why I said: >> TBH we probably shouldn't be importing PhD students in the humanities or over-saturated STEM fields (looking at you, Pure Math). But, tbh, this isn't even about fields, it's about spending 5 years developing hard-to-find research skills vs. spending 5 years indulging one's curiosity/taste. CS has its own version of "useless phd in Great Books/crit theory", and I've worked with philosophy PhDs who wrote more code for their dissertation than the average CS phd student.
- mjburgess 6y ago
  People are getting into $100k+ debt, and loosing out $100ks+ on the opportunity cost of this employment. We can take the "rational preference" of the postgrad student as perfectly well informed of this, or we can admit it's a scam. It's a scam. There is no job for them. They'd be happier elsewhere, being independent. They're being played around with for years of their life, being missold a future, and having their passion exploited. The "rot" isnt in the marketization of the university where (heaven forfend) students demand things of their professors. The rot is in their professors themselves (who know the game and lie about it), the government which supplies their marks (ie. satisifies their voters) and the aspirational middle class parents who demand their special little ones get $100k+ loans against their future for nonesense and bullshit.
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    > People are getting into $100k+ debt PhDs come with a living wage stipend and 100% tuition. I've never heard of anyone going in to debt to get a phd. If you're paying for your phd with borrowed money, you made a really huge wrong turn. As for the rest... sorry you had a bad experience. To all future readers: don't do a phd for the money, and during your phd, make sure you develop marketable skills. By your mid 20s, you should have realized that you are responsible for your own career. > The rot is in their professors themselves yeah, those evil professors, working 2x the hours I work for 1/5th of the money /s No one owes you anything. University -- especially phd school -- is a place where you can draw on experts and resources to develop marketable skills. Or you can not. You're paying for access, not for guaranteed outcomes.
    - stepstop 6y ago
      > I've never heard of anyone going in to debt to get a phd. I have friends who have. And even a college professor who told me he was still paying it back

throwawaygh 6y ago

That's why I said: >> TBH we probably shouldn't be importing PhD students in the humanities or over-saturated STEM fields (looking at you, Pure Math). But, tbh, this isn't even about fields, it's about spending 5 years developing hard-to-find research skills vs. spending 5 years indulging one's curiosity/taste. CS has its own version of "useless phd in Great Books/crit theory", and I've worked with philosophy PhDs who wrote more code for their dissertation than the average CS phd student.

mjburgess 6y ago
People are getting into $100k+ debt, and loosing out $100ks+ on the opportunity cost of this employment. We can take the "rational preference" of the postgrad student as perfectly well informed of this, or we can admit it's a scam. It's a scam. There is no job for them. They'd be happier elsewhere, being independent. They're being played around with for years of their life, being missold a future, and having their passion exploited. The "rot" isnt in the marketization of the university where (heaven forfend) students demand things of their professors. The rot is in their professors themselves (who know the game and lie about it), the government which supplies their marks (ie. satisifies their voters) and the aspirational middle class parents who demand their special little ones get $100k+ loans against their future for nonesense and bullshit.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  > People are getting into $100k+ debt PhDs come with a living wage stipend and 100% tuition. I've never heard of anyone going in to debt to get a phd. If you're paying for your phd with borrowed money, you made a really huge wrong turn. As for the rest... sorry you had a bad experience. To all future readers: don't do a phd for the money, and during your phd, make sure you develop marketable skills. By your mid 20s, you should have realized that you are responsible for your own career. > The rot is in their professors themselves yeah, those evil professors, working 2x the hours I work for 1/5th of the money /s No one owes you anything. University -- especially phd school -- is a place where you can draw on experts and resources to develop marketable skills. Or you can not. You're paying for access, not for guaranteed outcomes.
  - stepstop 6y ago
    > I've never heard of anyone going in to debt to get a phd. I have friends who have. And even a college professor who told me he was still paying it back