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> our dumb parents generation thought that "education" was important and demanded government support for all their children. 100% wrong. The vast majority of S

> our dumb parents generation thought that "education" was important and demanded government support for all their children. 100% wrong. The vast majority of STEM PhDs are foreign born. The reason we have a ton of PhDs in certain fields is because of how our immigration system works. TBH we probably shouldn't be importing PhD students in the humanities or over-saturated STEM fields (looking at you, Pure Math). > The reason we have too many PhDs We really don't, at least in certain fields. We might have too many PhDs who want to be faculty at top 10 universities. But, at least in CS, we have a pretty significant shortage of PhDs. My first post-PhD job offers were in the 300K - 500K range. I had zero days of work experience outside phd school. That indicates a significant labor shortage; I'm not that special, I promise, but I was the only person in my particular niche on the market they year, and there were 5 companies with deep pockets who wanted my expertise. Hedge funds and tech monopolies over-paying for talent is, I guess, not the worst thing in the world. But good luck hiring a PhD to be a professor at your small cash-strapped branch campus when you can pay $60K/yr, your governor is constantly shit-talking lazy academics who in fact work 80 hour weeks, and the competing offers in industry are well into the mid six figures with better work/life balance and better job security.

mjburgess 6y ago
Err... I think you're taking an extremely narrow job market view of a PhD... ie., one which is actually useful for a job market. Sure, in some research-driven and high-complexity industrial areas there's a very severe shortage of talent in general. You don't get programmers being paid 200k without a real-terms shortage, let alone programmers with PhDs in, eg., algorithmic research. My point was about the university system, as a closed system. That is what the OP comment is talking about. The only use of a cultural criticsm PhD is a job teaching that subject. There aren't any. Last time I checked there were TWO job openings in the entirety of the united kingdom for a postdoc job requiring a philosophy PhD. The university is, at this point, just a scam. For almost all students. The 1-5% who get some use out of it, and who always got some use out of it, should continue to go.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  That's why I said: >> TBH we probably shouldn't be importing PhD students in the humanities or over-saturated STEM fields (looking at you, Pure Math). But, tbh, this isn't even about fields, it's about spending 5 years developing hard-to-find research skills vs. spending 5 years indulging one's curiosity/taste. CS has its own version of "useless phd in Great Books/crit theory", and I've worked with philosophy PhDs who wrote more code for their dissertation than the average CS phd student.
  - mjburgess 6y ago
    People are getting into $100k+ debt, and loosing out $100ks+ on the opportunity cost of this employment. We can take the "rational preference" of the postgrad student as perfectly well informed of this, or we can admit it's a scam. It's a scam. There is no job for them. They'd be happier elsewhere, being independent. They're being played around with for years of their life, being missold a future, and having their passion exploited. The "rot" isnt in the marketization of the university where (heaven forfend) students demand things of their professors. The rot is in their professors themselves (who know the game and lie about it), the government which supplies their marks (ie. satisifies their voters) and the aspirational middle class parents who demand their special little ones get $100k+ loans against their future for nonesense and bullshit.
    - throwawaygh 6y ago
      > People are getting into $100k+ debt PhDs come with a living wage stipend and 100% tuition. I've never heard of anyone going in to debt to get a phd. If you're paying for your phd with borrowed money, you made a really huge wrong turn. As for the rest... sorry you had a bad experience. To all future readers: don't do a phd for the money, and during your phd, make sure you develop marketable skills. By your mid 20s, you should have realized that you are responsible for your own career. > The rot is in their professors themselves yeah, those evil professors, working 2x the hours I work for 1/5th of the money /s No one owes you anything. University -- especially phd school -- is a place where you can draw on experts and resources to develop marketable skills. Or you can not. You're paying for access, not for guaranteed outcomes.

mjburgess 6y ago

Err... I think you're taking an extremely narrow job market view of a PhD... ie., one which is actually useful for a job market. Sure, in some research-driven and high-complexity industrial areas there's a very severe shortage of talent in general. You don't get programmers being paid 200k without a real-terms shortage, let alone programmers with PhDs in, eg., algorithmic research. My point was about the university system, as a closed system. That is what the OP comment is talking about. The only use of a cultural criticsm PhD is a job teaching that subject. There aren't any. Last time I checked there were TWO job openings in the entirety of the united kingdom for a postdoc job requiring a philosophy PhD. The university is, at this point, just a scam. For almost all students. The 1-5% who get some use out of it, and who always got some use out of it, should continue to go.

throwawaygh 6y ago
That's why I said: >> TBH we probably shouldn't be importing PhD students in the humanities or over-saturated STEM fields (looking at you, Pure Math). But, tbh, this isn't even about fields, it's about spending 5 years developing hard-to-find research skills vs. spending 5 years indulging one's curiosity/taste. CS has its own version of "useless phd in Great Books/crit theory", and I've worked with philosophy PhDs who wrote more code for their dissertation than the average CS phd student.
- mjburgess 6y ago
  People are getting into $100k+ debt, and loosing out $100ks+ on the opportunity cost of this employment. We can take the "rational preference" of the postgrad student as perfectly well informed of this, or we can admit it's a scam. It's a scam. There is no job for them. They'd be happier elsewhere, being independent. They're being played around with for years of their life, being missold a future, and having their passion exploited. The "rot" isnt in the marketization of the university where (heaven forfend) students demand things of their professors. The rot is in their professors themselves (who know the game and lie about it), the government which supplies their marks (ie. satisifies their voters) and the aspirational middle class parents who demand their special little ones get $100k+ loans against their future for nonesense and bullshit.
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    > People are getting into $100k+ debt PhDs come with a living wage stipend and 100% tuition. I've never heard of anyone going in to debt to get a phd. If you're paying for your phd with borrowed money, you made a really huge wrong turn. As for the rest... sorry you had a bad experience. To all future readers: don't do a phd for the money, and during your phd, make sure you develop marketable skills. By your mid 20s, you should have realized that you are responsible for your own career. > The rot is in their professors themselves yeah, those evil professors, working 2x the hours I work for 1/5th of the money /s No one owes you anything. University -- especially phd school -- is a place where you can draw on experts and resources to develop marketable skills. Or you can not. You're paying for access, not for guaranteed outcomes.