5 ms·

I have no problem with that, but why aren't these types of statistical models and curve analysis being used to deploy drive by patrols? Some of this seems like

I have no problem with that, but why aren't these types of statistical models and curve analysis being used to deploy drive by patrols? Some of this seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water, does it not? While I agree that it's way too soon for this sort of granularity, is it too soon to have 10 block, increased presence of troubled areas helped by statistical analysis?

alpha_squared 6y ago
> I have no problem with that, but why aren't these types of statistical models and curve analysis being used to deploy drive by patrols? Some of this seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water, does it not? Combined with the evidence of extreme LEO abuse of power, doesn't this reinforce the idea that certain people/neighborhoods become disproportionately affected? Isn't this exactly what the past few weeks of protests have been railing against?
- Aunche 6y ago
  If police with guns disproportionately hurt minorities that doesn't mean no police should be allowed to carry guns. You can justify drastic restrictions, but banning a tool altogether is being unnecessarily technophobic.
jedberg 6y ago
AI amplifies human biases. If a few racist cops decide to target a black neighborhood, and "find" a bunch of crimes, that data gets fed into the system. The system then spits out that neighborhood as high risk and assigns extra patrols there. Those patrols feel the need to justify spending all that time out there, so then they "find" crimes too. And then it just reinforces that data that that is a high risk neighborhood, making the whole thing worse. The entire system is built on decades of bad data. Step one is cleaning up the data and/or starting over.
TallGuyShort 6y ago
If crime being caught by a drive-by patrol is a significant way in which crime is being caught, to me that screams "victimless crimes". I break victimless laws all the time, sometimes with my police officer friends and neighbors present, sometimes on private property miles from any public roads. I never seem to get busted for it. So if 10-block patrols of "troubled areas" really saw an increase in enforcement action, then combined with the fact that America has disproportionately bad imprisonment and recidivism rates, it sounds like you're describing exactly what systemic discrimination is. You live in a bad neighborhood, so you're more likely to get caught for something, now you're on parole, now anywhere you live is a "bad neighborhood" requiring more patrols, more likely to get caught for something. Meanwhile I can live in my entirely white suburb smoking weed and my life doesn't change.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  Of course if the law is bad, the solution isn't to dismantle law enforcement, it's to fix the law.
  - TallGuyShort 6y ago
    I'm all for that. But systemically we tend to oppose that too. You do that long enough, eventually the ones on the bottom start pulling down statues. But the problem is both. We have victimless laws, and we have law enforcement departments with histories of covering for their own people when they break the law, or exploiting loopholes to railroad people.
  - diag 6y ago
    How do you deal with police forces ignoring policy and performing as they deem fit all while protecting themselves?
    - Karunamon 6y ago
      Burn qualified immunity to the ground and salt the earth. This would be the simplest way to keep police accountable for their behavior. It would also imply a massive change in how policing is done (demilitarization), so that's two big wins. We can lay a lot of the rotten police problem in the USA, and the world, at the fact that the accountability just isn't there.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ska 6y ago
Even assuming the models are good, what confidence do you have that the data is good?
- diag 6y ago
  There are a lot of opportunities for the data to skewed in a highly biased manner.
mattnewton 6y ago
Disproportionate policing of a demographic is going to lead to disproportionate application of the law, both spurious and justified, to that demographic.

alpha_squared 6y ago

> I have no problem with that, but why aren't these types of statistical models and curve analysis being used to deploy drive by patrols? Some of this seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water, does it not? Combined with the evidence of extreme LEO abuse of power, doesn't this reinforce the idea that certain people/neighborhoods become disproportionately affected? Isn't this exactly what the past few weeks of protests have been railing against?

Aunche 6y ago
If police with guns disproportionately hurt minorities that doesn't mean no police should be allowed to carry guns. You can justify drastic restrictions, but banning a tool altogether is being unnecessarily technophobic.

jedberg 6y ago

AI amplifies human biases. If a few racist cops decide to target a black neighborhood, and "find" a bunch of crimes, that data gets fed into the system. The system then spits out that neighborhood as high risk and assigns extra patrols there. Those patrols feel the need to justify spending all that time out there, so then they "find" crimes too. And then it just reinforces that data that that is a high risk neighborhood, making the whole thing worse. The entire system is built on decades of bad data. Step one is cleaning up the data and/or starting over.

TallGuyShort 6y ago

If crime being caught by a drive-by patrol is a significant way in which crime is being caught, to me that screams "victimless crimes". I break victimless laws all the time, sometimes with my police officer friends and neighbors present, sometimes on private property miles from any public roads. I never seem to get busted for it. So if 10-block patrols of "troubled areas" really saw an increase in enforcement action, then combined with the fact that America has disproportionately bad imprisonment and recidivism rates, it sounds like you're describing exactly what systemic discrimination is. You live in a bad neighborhood, so you're more likely to get caught for something, now you're on parole, now anywhere you live is a "bad neighborhood" requiring more patrols, more likely to get caught for something. Meanwhile I can live in my entirely white suburb smoking weed and my life doesn't change.

whatshisface 6y ago
Of course if the law is bad, the solution isn't to dismantle law enforcement, it's to fix the law.
- TallGuyShort 6y ago
  I'm all for that. But systemically we tend to oppose that too. You do that long enough, eventually the ones on the bottom start pulling down statues. But the problem is both. We have victimless laws, and we have law enforcement departments with histories of covering for their own people when they break the law, or exploiting loopholes to railroad people.
- diag 6y ago
  How do you deal with police forces ignoring policy and performing as they deem fit all while protecting themselves?
  - Karunamon 6y ago
    Burn qualified immunity to the ground and salt the earth. This would be the simplest way to keep police accountable for their behavior. It would also imply a massive change in how policing is done (demilitarization), so that's two big wins. We can lay a lot of the rotten police problem in the USA, and the world, at the fact that the accountability just isn't there.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ska 6y ago

Even assuming the models are good, what confidence do you have that the data is good?

diag 6y ago
There are a lot of opportunities for the data to skewed in a highly biased manner.

mattnewton 6y ago

Disproportionate policing of a demographic is going to lead to disproportionate application of the law, both spurious and justified, to that demographic.