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I used to sit on my friends porch when I was in college before pot was legalized, smoking. We are white people in a white area. If we had been black I have no d

I used to sit on my friends porch when I was in college before pot was legalized, smoking. We are white people in a white area. If we had been black I have no doubt the increased police presence would have resulted in us getting arrested. There are tons of other stupid things I did when younger where if there had been more cops around I would have gone to jail. More police means more people are arrested for the same crimes committed with impunity in less policed areas. In addition the fact that you can be arrested for resisting arrest means that if a police officer wants to arrest you they can do so and create a crime afterwards. Recent headlines have shown very vividly how police actively encourage and look for confrontations hoping to spark a reaction. In a high crime area, everyone is a criminal in much the same way everything looks like a nail to a hammer. Imagine if this man had actually actively resisted the officer: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/24/man-sues-georgia-police-excessive-use-force-after-wrong-arrest/3248440001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/24/man-su...

eanzenberg 6y ago
Unfortunately, law and order has to be standardized for everybody, regardless of background. Pot was decriminalized in many states already. Are there other things you would like to decriminalize? There are avenues for those, but it’s not a fast turn-around, those things take time.
- wonderwonder 6y ago
  The law is standardized for everyone, its enforcement that is the issue. There are clear differences in enforcement for different races and different wealth levels. My example occurred many moons ago before pot was decriminalized any where. I am old :)
  - eanzenberg 6y ago
    Yes agreed, enforcement has to be standardized as well. Justice should be blind, except to the law. The pendulum swinging though has me worried, where dangerous crimes are currently unenforced.
    - zo1 6y ago
      The knee-jerk reaction against policing will cause more harm than good, all in the name of some nebulous "long term" outcome that is borderline undefinable. Some knee-jerk reactions that we're seeing or considering" 1. Banning facial recognition. 2. Banning predictive policing (this article). 3. Defunding police departments 4. California's ACA5 amendment that seeks to remove anti-discrimination laws, allowing racial and gender discrimination.
      - scollet 6y ago
        Hm, I don't see enacting your first three points as being inherently negative. If it's broken, why not try to fix it?
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    > The law is standardized for everyone https://www.aclu.org/other/cracks-system-20-years-unjust-federal-crack-cocaine-law https://www.aclu.org/other/cracks-system-20-years-unjust-fed...
    - rodiger 6y ago
      As unjust as the results/motivation of this are, the law itself does not vary based on the person committing it.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- cryptoz 6y ago
  In our society, everyone is a lawbreaker. There are so many laws that surely everyone is guilty of breaking some law. This results in police being able to discriminate by selectively enforcing laws. Since everyone is probably doing something illegal, police do racist things by profiling people who are 'probably doing [something illegal]' without sounding racist. It's a common pattern in societies where the laws are so invasive and numerous that everyone breaks them. We need reasonable laws that are equally and fully enforced to reduce this particular outlet of racism.
  - ihumanable 6y ago
    One of the things I recently started thinking about is how most of the "wacky hijinks" in TV Shows and Movies would almost definitely result in your arrest today. Many of the "innocent pranks" and "fun times" that my grandparents and parents would tell me about from their youth, also have components that have been made illegal now. Almost every Senior Prank has some component of B&E / vandalism. I've just found it odd how the media we consume seems to exist in this completely different world, where baristas live in massive apartments they could never afford and most of the fun and excitement of the story comes from situations that in real life would most likely end in your arrest. It seems like decades of being "tough on crime" and having a "war on drugs" has created a society where everyone is always breaking some law. That means that we are all at the mercy of Law Enforcement officers as they use their "professional discretion" to decide who is breaking it enough. This is an older article but still relevant as ever https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/08/03/how-the-supreme-court-made-it-legal-for-cops-to-pull-you-over-for-just-about-anything https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/08/03/how-the-suprem... Do you have an air freshener in your car, the police can pull you over for it. Then claim they smell alcohol or marijuana and search your person and vehicle. As long as they stopped you "in good faith" because they thought, even incorrectly, that they could stop you for obstructed view, then it's cool with the courts. It seems like we are overdue for a correction. While every crime statistic has pointed to the fact that we live in the safest time in history, we continue with zero-tolerance tough-on-crime policy making that does nothing to make us safer.
    - floren 6y ago
jimbob45 6y ago
Edit: This was not a well-thought out post lol and I'm deleting it.
- webkike 6y ago
  I’ve been to plenty of protests in low income areas, and the push to defund the police is coming from them, not the higher income areas.
  - mc32 6y ago
    A question to ask is what are the demographics? Is the support a plurality, old people, young people, homeowners, a silent majority a vocal minority, do we know?
    - webkike 6y ago
      Seemed to me to be made up of a wide variety of demographics, but organized by respected community leaders who typically are homeowners in the areas they live.
- wonderwonder 6y ago
  I hear what you are saying but disagree to a point. How many of these people getting arrested for the serious crimes have pre existing arrests / convictions for minor crimes? Once you have a couple of minor arrests and you are in the system, finding a career and advancing yourself becomes increasingly difficult. I would make an uneducated assumption that if they had not gotten the minor infractions and had a future perhaps the major infractions would not have happened. With that said there are always going to be bad people that require police intervention. Further adding to this if you grow up in an environment where there is a high criminal element you may be more predisposed to it, starting with minor infractions like marijuana use and then you are arrested and the self fulfilling prophecy repeats. Massively increased policing has created the environment in which many of these people are born and turn to crime. If you are constantly treated like a criminal, you may come to think of yourself as one.
mistersquid 6y ago
The report you linked to is astonishing, not just for the violence committed against someone who, at the time he was questioned, was not in violation of the law, but also for the degree of force used considering the crime being investigated. To wit: > wrongly detained him after identifying him as a suspect in a panhandling case. Slammed to the ground for being suspected of panhandling? (To my mind, panhandling is akin to free speech.)
- ruddct 6y ago
  Wait until you hear about Elijiah McClain, who was tackled then choked/injected with ketamine until he went into cardiac arrest and was eventually pronounced brain-dead. He had 911 called on him for walking while 'looking sketchy'. https://www.nytimes.com/article/who-was-elijah-mcclain.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/who-was-elijah-mcclain.html
  - 1024core 6y ago
    The Elijah McClain case makes me very sad; not only for everything listed in the article, but also because he was a skinny, nerdy kid like most of my friends (and many of this site's readers, I imagine). Just a regular guy going about his business, and he is murdered (and I don't use that term lightly) by the very people sworn to "protect and serve" him.

eanzenberg 6y ago

Unfortunately, law and order has to be standardized for everybody, regardless of background. Pot was decriminalized in many states already. Are there other things you would like to decriminalize? There are avenues for those, but it’s not a fast turn-around, those things take time.

wonderwonder 6y ago
The law is standardized for everyone, its enforcement that is the issue. There are clear differences in enforcement for different races and different wealth levels. My example occurred many moons ago before pot was decriminalized any where. I am old :)
- eanzenberg 6y ago
  Yes agreed, enforcement has to be standardized as well. Justice should be blind, except to the law. The pendulum swinging though has me worried, where dangerous crimes are currently unenforced.
  - zo1 6y ago
    The knee-jerk reaction against policing will cause more harm than good, all in the name of some nebulous "long term" outcome that is borderline undefinable. Some knee-jerk reactions that we're seeing or considering" 1. Banning facial recognition. 2. Banning predictive policing (this article). 3. Defunding police departments 4. California's ACA5 amendment that seeks to remove anti-discrimination laws, allowing racial and gender discrimination.
    - scollet 6y ago
      Hm, I don't see enacting your first three points as being inherently negative. If it's broken, why not try to fix it?
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  > The law is standardized for everyone https://www.aclu.org/other/cracks-system-20-years-unjust-federal-crack-cocaine-law https://www.aclu.org/other/cracks-system-20-years-unjust-fed...
  - rodiger 6y ago
    As unjust as the results/motivation of this are, the law itself does not vary based on the person committing it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
cryptoz 6y ago
In our society, everyone is a lawbreaker. There are so many laws that surely everyone is guilty of breaking some law. This results in police being able to discriminate by selectively enforcing laws. Since everyone is probably doing something illegal, police do racist things by profiling people who are 'probably doing [something illegal]' without sounding racist. It's a common pattern in societies where the laws are so invasive and numerous that everyone breaks them. We need reasonable laws that are equally and fully enforced to reduce this particular outlet of racism.
- ihumanable 6y ago
  One of the things I recently started thinking about is how most of the "wacky hijinks" in TV Shows and Movies would almost definitely result in your arrest today. Many of the "innocent pranks" and "fun times" that my grandparents and parents would tell me about from their youth, also have components that have been made illegal now. Almost every Senior Prank has some component of B&E / vandalism. I've just found it odd how the media we consume seems to exist in this completely different world, where baristas live in massive apartments they could never afford and most of the fun and excitement of the story comes from situations that in real life would most likely end in your arrest. It seems like decades of being "tough on crime" and having a "war on drugs" has created a society where everyone is always breaking some law. That means that we are all at the mercy of Law Enforcement officers as they use their "professional discretion" to decide who is breaking it enough. This is an older article but still relevant as ever https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/08/03/how-the-supreme-court-made-it-legal-for-cops-to-pull-you-over-for-just-about-anything https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/08/03/how-the-suprem... Do you have an air freshener in your car, the police can pull you over for it. Then claim they smell alcohol or marijuana and search your person and vehicle. As long as they stopped you "in good faith" because they thought, even incorrectly, that they could stop you for obstructed view, then it's cool with the courts. It seems like we are overdue for a correction. While every crime statistic has pointed to the fact that we live in the safest time in history, we continue with zero-tolerance tough-on-crime policy making that does nothing to make us safer.
  - floren 6y ago

jimbob45 6y ago

Edit: This was not a well-thought out post lol and I'm deleting it.

webkike 6y ago
I’ve been to plenty of protests in low income areas, and the push to defund the police is coming from them, not the higher income areas.
- mc32 6y ago
  A question to ask is what are the demographics? Is the support a plurality, old people, young people, homeowners, a silent majority a vocal minority, do we know?
  - webkike 6y ago
    Seemed to me to be made up of a wide variety of demographics, but organized by respected community leaders who typically are homeowners in the areas they live.
wonderwonder 6y ago
I hear what you are saying but disagree to a point. How many of these people getting arrested for the serious crimes have pre existing arrests / convictions for minor crimes? Once you have a couple of minor arrests and you are in the system, finding a career and advancing yourself becomes increasingly difficult. I would make an uneducated assumption that if they had not gotten the minor infractions and had a future perhaps the major infractions would not have happened. With that said there are always going to be bad people that require police intervention. Further adding to this if you grow up in an environment where there is a high criminal element you may be more predisposed to it, starting with minor infractions like marijuana use and then you are arrested and the self fulfilling prophecy repeats. Massively increased policing has created the environment in which many of these people are born and turn to crime. If you are constantly treated like a criminal, you may come to think of yourself as one.

mistersquid 6y ago

The report you linked to is astonishing, not just for the violence committed against someone who, at the time he was questioned, was not in violation of the law, but also for the degree of force used considering the crime being investigated. To wit: > wrongly detained him after identifying him as a suspect in a panhandling case. Slammed to the ground for being suspected of panhandling? (To my mind, panhandling is akin to free speech.)

ruddct 6y ago
Wait until you hear about Elijiah McClain, who was tackled then choked/injected with ketamine until he went into cardiac arrest and was eventually pronounced brain-dead. He had 911 called on him for walking while 'looking sketchy'. https://www.nytimes.com/article/who-was-elijah-mcclain.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/who-was-elijah-mcclain.html
- 1024core 6y ago
  The Elijah McClain case makes me very sad; not only for everything listed in the article, but also because he was a skinny, nerdy kid like most of my friends (and many of this site's readers, I imagine). Just a regular guy going about his business, and he is murdered (and I don't use that term lightly) by the very people sworn to "protect and serve" him.