6 ms·

To restore American leadership in semiconductor manufacturing

71 points by blopeur 6y ago

swiley 6y ago
Meh. This is treating a symptom. Semiconductor manufacturing moves very slowly and it just took it a while to live the US like everyone else did.
phkahler 6y ago
Besides Intel (who doesnt need a subsidy IMHO) who even makes chips on advanced nodes in the US any more?
- joecool1029 6y ago
  I think Micron (Crucial) still has US fabs for NAND. They were in partnership with Intel but that agreement was dissolved a couple years ago.
- wegs 6y ago
  What do you mean by advanced nodes? If you're talking about nanometers, you've got TI, Micron, and a few others. Where you have deep voodoo are some of the MEMS and analog manufacturing processes (e.g. ADI). Those aren't necessarily small feature sizes, but they are hyper-advanced. It take massive R&D to replicate them. But they're not large volume either. A few years back, I think car airbags might have been the biggest application.
- skaevola 6y ago
  Samsung has a 14nm fab in Austin and GF has a 12nm (?) fab in New York.
- brennanpeterson 6y ago
  Samsung Austin, Intel (NM, OR, AZ), GF, Micron and then it depends.in what is added. Cree, arguably. The better question: who is building a next Fab. Samsung will expand Intel could TSMC will Someone, somewhere, will restart Sematech as a research facility. I would bet on either Austin or Ann Arbor.
SkyMarshal 6y ago
American Institute of Physics Summary: https://www.aip.org/fyi/federal-science-bill-tracker/116th/creating-helpful-incentives-produce-semiconductors-chips https://www.aip.org/fyi/federal-science-bill-tracker/116th/c... - Authorizes funding for semiconductor R&D, including $3 billion for the National Science Foundation, $2 billion for the Department of Energy, and $2 billion for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency’s Electronics Resurgence Initiative - Creates a multi-agency National Semiconductor Technology Center that would conduct research and prototyping of advanced semiconductors in partnership with the private sector, with a recommended budget of $3 billion over ten years - Establishes an Advanced Packaging National Manufacturing Institute under the Department of Commerce with a recommended budget of $5 billion over five years and creates a semiconductor program at National Institute of Standards and Technology that would support a new Manufacturing USA institute - Creates a $10 billion trust fund to match state and local incentives for investments in semiconductor manufacturing facilities - Provides tax credits for qualified semiconductor equipment or manufacturing facility expenditures through 2027
- georgeburdell 6y ago
  Thanks for the summary. I was not able to see any additional text in the house bill so I was confused what to glean. 300M/year is not going to dig us out of this hole. Intel's R&D budget is 10 times that per quarter [1], and that apparently doesn't even get you #1 in process leadership. In my opinion, the real problem is that semiconductors is no longer an attractive field for the best and brightest Americans. They realized they can go into software engineering and, as a new grad, make more as a BS than a semiconductor PhD. Unfortunately, national security doesn't dictate market wages, so I expect the U.S. to fall further behind unless they find a way to lower software wages, which perhaps ironically they're doing the opposite of with the H1B freeze. [1] https://www.intc.com/investor-relations/investor-education-and-news/investor-news/press-release-details/2020/Intel-Reports-Fourth-Quarter-2019-Financial-Results/default.aspx https://www.intc.com/investor-relations/investor-education-a...
  - jimbob45 6y ago
    From Wikipedia: Fabs require many expensive devices to function. Estimates put the cost of building a new fab over one billion U.S. dollars with values as high as $3–4 billion not being uncommon. TSMC invested $9.3 billion in its Fab15 300 mm wafer manufacturing facility in Taiwan.[1] The same company estimations suggest that their future fab might cost $20 billion.[2] So the total amount of this bill would be enough to build a new fab (in theory, not in practice). Still, I think you're right that, short of nationalizing US fabs and building a new one outright, this isn't going to bring the US back on par with other countries.
sand_castles 6y ago
When was the last time a political decree lead to change in who gets to be leader in what ? The modern Chinese supply chain can only be replicated in few other places in the world. I don't see what the problem is to let China do what it does, and focus everybody else's goal on other more important things - like reducing global C02 emissions. You could generate millions of jobs just by doing that.
- Klinky 6y ago
  Aren't we still in the middle of a PPE shortage crisis exactly due to this kind of thinking?
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  > When was the last time a political decree lead to change in who gets to be leader in what ? The creation of the National Science Foundation, National Institutes of Health, and Advanced Research Project Agencies undoubtedly had a profound impact on the direction of both the US economy and the rate of scientific progress during the mid-late 20th century. > I don't see what the problem is to let China do what it does, and focus everybody else's goal on other more important things - like reducing global C02 emissions... You could generate millions of jobs just by doing that. What makes these mutually exclusive?
  - BobbyJo 6y ago
    Also, the entirety of what China has accomplished is based on political decree...
    - barkingcat 6y ago
      exactly this. China did all / everything by political decree... You like their High Speed Rail network? Oh that was a political decree when nobody in its population could even afford to ride a high speed train. You like their science? That's a political decree as well.
      - 6y ago
rdlecler1 6y ago
We have intel and amd here already. It’s not clear that R&D is the issue, it’s cost of manufacturing. This seems to be better solved with some kind of critical industry tax incentives.
- rudolph9 6y ago
  Does AMD manufacture here?
  - ihattendorf 6y ago
    TSMC makes AMD chips. TSMC recently announced plans to open a plant in Arizona, although I don't believe they've announced what chips will be made there.
    - rapsey 6y ago
      Current generation which will be previous generation once it is done.
    - basch 6y ago
      doesnt GlobalFoundries as well (the spinoff of AMDs fab along with some acquisitions.) https://www.anandtech.com/show/13915/amd-amends-agreement-with-globalfoudries-set-to-buy-wafers-till-2021 https://www.anandtech.com/show/13915/amd-amends-agreement-wi...
      - ihattendorf 6y ago
        You're right, I was thinking of 7nm. They still have agreements with GF for 12nm+.
  - gen3 6y ago
    AMD has global foundries manufacture their IO chip. They are an American company, but I don’t know where they actually fab the silicon. (I would assume Singapore since that’s where their 200nm fabs are)
  - 6y ago
groby_b 6y ago
Well, aren't you glad we just made it untenable for a large number of experts on the subject to work here?
- rudolph9 6y ago
  Yeah seems like we should lift the H1B1 visa ban and perhaps even expedite those who have expertise in this field it domestic semiconductor manufacturer is the goal?
- nine_zeros 6y ago
  > Well, aren't you glad we just made it untenable for a large number of experts on the subject to work here? Even if they lift the ban, its not like these experts will immediately abandon their families and jobs to jump into the uncertain administrative environment of the US. Why would they come if their lives can be upended by the stroke of a pen?
yazaddaruvala 6y ago
It'll be interesting to watch as congress balances vertical integration concerns with increased need for high-tech (like semiconductor) manufacturing. Companies like AAPL and AMZN have shown multiple times, they are willing to invest past the barriers to entry to improve vertical integration, reduce their bottom line, but also give back some of those wins to their customers. Both of these companies are leaders in custom silicon, and it is only a matter of time before they prioritize the move into silicon fabrication as well. Best case would be if, once mature, these companies would spin out subsidiaries which design generalized chips and fab chips for the entire industry. But if there is a push for regulation to have less vertical integration because of the enormous competitive advantages, its not clear where that line should be drawn for creating subsidiaries. It'll be interesting to know if their decisions to invest into things like semiconductor manufacturing will be impacted by regulation and which is the less bad choice accounting for the economy and national defense.
insaneisnotfree 6y ago
In my country this would never happen

71 points by blopeur 6y ago

Meh. This is treating a symptom. Semiconductor manufacturing moves very slowly and it just took it a while to live the US like everyone else did.

phkahler 6y ago

Besides Intel (who doesnt need a subsidy IMHO) who even makes chips on advanced nodes in the US any more?

joecool1029 6y ago
I think Micron (Crucial) still has US fabs for NAND. They were in partnership with Intel but that agreement was dissolved a couple years ago.
wegs 6y ago
What do you mean by advanced nodes? If you're talking about nanometers, you've got TI, Micron, and a few others. Where you have deep voodoo are some of the MEMS and analog manufacturing processes (e.g. ADI). Those aren't necessarily small feature sizes, but they are hyper-advanced. It take massive R&D to replicate them. But they're not large volume either. A few years back, I think car airbags might have been the biggest application.
skaevola 6y ago
Samsung has a 14nm fab in Austin and GF has a 12nm (?) fab in New York.
brennanpeterson 6y ago
Samsung Austin, Intel (NM, OR, AZ), GF, Micron and then it depends.in what is added. Cree, arguably. The better question: who is building a next Fab. Samsung will expand Intel could TSMC will Someone, somewhere, will restart Sematech as a research facility. I would bet on either Austin or Ann Arbor.

SkyMarshal 6y ago

American Institute of Physics Summary: https://www.aip.org/fyi/federal-science-bill-tracker/116th/creating-helpful-incentives-produce-semiconductors-chips https://www.aip.org/fyi/federal-science-bill-tracker/116th/c... - Authorizes funding for semiconductor R&D, including $3 billion for the National Science Foundation, $2 billion for the Department of Energy, and $2 billion for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency’s Electronics Resurgence Initiative - Creates a multi-agency National Semiconductor Technology Center that would conduct research and prototyping of advanced semiconductors in partnership with the private sector, with a recommended budget of $3 billion over ten years - Establishes an Advanced Packaging National Manufacturing Institute under the Department of Commerce with a recommended budget of $5 billion over five years and creates a semiconductor program at National Institute of Standards and Technology that would support a new Manufacturing USA institute - Creates a $10 billion trust fund to match state and local incentives for investments in semiconductor manufacturing facilities - Provides tax credits for qualified semiconductor equipment or manufacturing facility expenditures through 2027

georgeburdell 6y ago
Thanks for the summary. I was not able to see any additional text in the house bill so I was confused what to glean. 300M/year is not going to dig us out of this hole. Intel's R&D budget is 10 times that per quarter [1], and that apparently doesn't even get you #1 in process leadership. In my opinion, the real problem is that semiconductors is no longer an attractive field for the best and brightest Americans. They realized they can go into software engineering and, as a new grad, make more as a BS than a semiconductor PhD. Unfortunately, national security doesn't dictate market wages, so I expect the U.S. to fall further behind unless they find a way to lower software wages, which perhaps ironically they're doing the opposite of with the H1B freeze. [1] https://www.intc.com/investor-relations/investor-education-and-news/investor-news/press-release-details/2020/Intel-Reports-Fourth-Quarter-2019-Financial-Results/default.aspx https://www.intc.com/investor-relations/investor-education-a...
- jimbob45 6y ago
  From Wikipedia: Fabs require many expensive devices to function. Estimates put the cost of building a new fab over one billion U.S. dollars with values as high as $3–4 billion not being uncommon. TSMC invested $9.3 billion in its Fab15 300 mm wafer manufacturing facility in Taiwan.[1] The same company estimations suggest that their future fab might cost $20 billion.[2] So the total amount of this bill would be enough to build a new fab (in theory, not in practice). Still, I think you're right that, short of nationalizing US fabs and building a new one outright, this isn't going to bring the US back on par with other countries.

sand_castles 6y ago

When was the last time a political decree lead to change in who gets to be leader in what ? The modern Chinese supply chain can only be replicated in few other places in the world. I don't see what the problem is to let China do what it does, and focus everybody else's goal on other more important things - like reducing global C02 emissions. You could generate millions of jobs just by doing that.

Klinky 6y ago
Aren't we still in the middle of a PPE shortage crisis exactly due to this kind of thinking?
throwawaygh 6y ago
> When was the last time a political decree lead to change in who gets to be leader in what ? The creation of the National Science Foundation, National Institutes of Health, and Advanced Research Project Agencies undoubtedly had a profound impact on the direction of both the US economy and the rate of scientific progress during the mid-late 20th century. > I don't see what the problem is to let China do what it does, and focus everybody else's goal on other more important things - like reducing global C02 emissions... You could generate millions of jobs just by doing that. What makes these mutually exclusive?
- BobbyJo 6y ago
  Also, the entirety of what China has accomplished is based on political decree...
  - barkingcat 6y ago
    exactly this. China did all / everything by political decree... You like their High Speed Rail network? Oh that was a political decree when nobody in its population could even afford to ride a high speed train. You like their science? That's a political decree as well.
    - 6y ago

rdlecler1 6y ago

We have intel and amd here already. It’s not clear that R&D is the issue, it’s cost of manufacturing. This seems to be better solved with some kind of critical industry tax incentives.

rudolph9 6y ago
Does AMD manufacture here?
- ihattendorf 6y ago
  TSMC makes AMD chips. TSMC recently announced plans to open a plant in Arizona, although I don't believe they've announced what chips will be made there.
  - rapsey 6y ago
    Current generation which will be previous generation once it is done.
  - basch 6y ago
    doesnt GlobalFoundries as well (the spinoff of AMDs fab along with some acquisitions.) https://www.anandtech.com/show/13915/amd-amends-agreement-with-globalfoudries-set-to-buy-wafers-till-2021 https://www.anandtech.com/show/13915/amd-amends-agreement-wi...
    - ihattendorf 6y ago
      You're right, I was thinking of 7nm. They still have agreements with GF for 12nm+.
- gen3 6y ago
  AMD has global foundries manufacture their IO chip. They are an American company, but I don’t know where they actually fab the silicon. (I would assume Singapore since that’s where their 200nm fabs are)
- 6y ago

groby_b 6y ago

Well, aren't you glad we just made it untenable for a large number of experts on the subject to work here?

rudolph9 6y ago
Yeah seems like we should lift the H1B1 visa ban and perhaps even expedite those who have expertise in this field it domestic semiconductor manufacturer is the goal?
nine_zeros 6y ago
> Well, aren't you glad we just made it untenable for a large number of experts on the subject to work here? Even if they lift the ban, its not like these experts will immediately abandon their families and jobs to jump into the uncertain administrative environment of the US. Why would they come if their lives can be upended by the stroke of a pen?

yazaddaruvala 6y ago

It'll be interesting to watch as congress balances vertical integration concerns with increased need for high-tech (like semiconductor) manufacturing. Companies like AAPL and AMZN have shown multiple times, they are willing to invest past the barriers to entry to improve vertical integration, reduce their bottom line, but also give back some of those wins to their customers. Both of these companies are leaders in custom silicon, and it is only a matter of time before they prioritize the move into silicon fabrication as well. Best case would be if, once mature, these companies would spin out subsidiaries which design generalized chips and fab chips for the entire industry. But if there is a push for regulation to have less vertical integration because of the enormous competitive advantages, its not clear where that line should be drawn for creating subsidiaries. It'll be interesting to know if their decisions to invest into things like semiconductor manufacturing will be impacted by regulation and which is the less bad choice accounting for the economy and national defense.

insaneisnotfree 6y ago

In my country this would never happen