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Same with the SF Westfield Center store. Great staff. It was a good place to check out various Surfaces in person as well. I will say, the surfaces/laptops sid

Same with the SF Westfield Center store. Great staff. It was a good place to check out various Surfaces in person as well. I will say, the surfaces/laptops side of the store was usually empty. Some kids playing with the Xbox or people at the counter getting help seemed to be the extent of traffic the past couple of years. They seem to be aggressively destroying any paltry remaining goodwill with consumer enthusiasts. I'm sure it's great for the bottom line, but is the ultimate goal to only be competing with Google and AWS on who can run the cheapest Linux VMs in the cloud ?

simonh 6y ago
I don't really see the connection. If the only traffic to the stores was a handful of people, how can this have any significant effect on customer good will? They can't be both empty and influential. It seems like the stores were a missed opportunity, but they always had the odds stacked against them. Whatever you can get in an MS store, you could get a much cheaper alternative running the same software at another electronic goods store or online. I suspect the theoretical opportunity was really a mirage and never really there.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  While I agree with your premise, I think that the availability of a store is a form of goodwill. You are given more confidence in a product if you know there's a place where you can go when things go wrong, or if you want to see something for real, and not just rely on some rendered image on a screen. There's an Apple Store a few blocks from me. I've never been there. But I like knowing I have the option.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > There's an Apple Store a few blocks from me. I've never been there. But I like knowing I have the option. Right - I feel like almost any city I'm going to for a conference will have an Apple store I can pop into if I have a problem. What do you do if you have a ThinkPad or System76 and you get a problem while at a conference? I guess you're out of luck and on your own.
    - OriginalPenguin 6y ago
      I have no idea for System 76, but for less than the cost of AppleCare, you can get next business day onsite service for your ThinkPad. I find that more convenient than taking your laptop to the store.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- ptero 6y ago
  > It seems like the stores were a missed opportunity, but they always had the odds stacked against them. Odds were against Microsoft stores being profitable because Microsoft is now an underdog in consumer tech. If you want hardware (possibly with the exception of xbox; I just do not know, never had one), Microsoft is rarely the name that jumps to mind. But this is exactly why Microsoft should keep them (using some profits from OS and software), even at a loss, to provide demos and let folks play with their toys. Not doing this means riding much more on inertia of existing corporate Windows 10 and Office installations. This is very profitable and still has a lot of inertia, but abandoning consumer tech is putting a $1.5 trillion dollar company into a more vulnerable long-term position.
  - simonh 6y ago
    But is it actually serving a purpose if not enough people are actually going into the stores, at the demos and playing with the toys? I don't think this is abandoning consumer tech. Their ~90% domination is still a thing. They gained it without stores, and the stores weren't helping them maintain it. There seems to be this cognitive lag where it seems like the stores should be a big deal, should be significant, giving them up should say something about Microsoft's position in the industry. A lot of commentary can't shake that perception. The reality though is it never was any of those things.
    - WorldMaker 6y ago
      I think that an interesting part of that lag is directly Windows Phone related. Phones seem to be the one consumer hardware product that customers "demand" a store to exist. Look at the retail landscape, other than big box electronics stores and office stores and Wal-Mart/Target, who is selling consumer electronics physically? There's a lot of strip malls packed with phone stores. People that want PC laptops/desktops mostly buy directly from OEMs on their websites. People that want Xboxes or PlayStations are fine grabbing it at Target, but more likely Amazon today. Phones for various reasons (and a lot of them are phone carrier bureaucracy related, I would imagine) "need" that extra bit of handholding, that service relationship when buying one. Even Apple Stores, the vast majority of the store space is devoted to phone sales and services and laptops/desktops an after-thought. If you hear of lines and busy days of Apple Stores, it is almost exclusively phones. Microsoft created their Stores just too many months too late to save the Windows Phone after the main US carriers decided 3 OSes was one too many options to carry in their own stores. Once Microsoft Stores were no longer selling Phones they always had less reason to exist, mostly existed already as either Xbox Experiences or shadow versions of (for instance) Best Buy's Surface section, without the rewards/brand loyalty of something like Best Buy.
- Someone 6y ago
  A helpdesk that helps you well and doesn’t have queues provides lots of goodwill, even when you don’t use it often. Such a helpdesk is expensive, though, the more so if you put it in a building in a premium location. In Apple’s case, that’s paid for by sales. I imagine Microsoft didn’t manage to do that, if only because they have less hardware to sell.
- AlchemistCamp 6y ago
  I used to check out the Surfaces as I walked by the windows of that store and for a while considered buying one. I didn't but it did have a (mildly) positive on my perception of MS while I lived in SF.
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  Was it low traffic or low sales traffic? Helpdesk traffic is unlikely to drive much in terms of immediate sales, but establishing a good helpdesk that can be trusted is very key to trust in the brand. And helpdesk is usually a get in, drop your laptop off, get out and pick it up later type of thing.
  - jimmydddd 6y ago
    Agreed. I had a great walk in help desk experience with resetting a Surface. I otherwise like the Surface, but, if you search online, you can see some models seem to have an intermittant mystery power up glitch. Knowing there was a store a few minutes away that could reset the device would give me confidence to purchase another one without hesitation.
- kccqzy 6y ago
  It's about presence and exposure. For people (like me) who use mostly Apple products and block ads on the internet, the Microsoft products aren't really on my mind. Having a store close by that I can visit certainly increases exposure to these products. It's surprising how my own attitude changes depending on if it's online: if I see an ad for Microsoft or other brands on the Internet, I'd feel irate and start to wonder why my ad blocker stopped working. But if I see a Microsoft store taking up thousands of square feet, I don't mind its presence and would totally check it out if I am not busy.
  - plussed_reader 6y ago
    You have a hard time escaping the advertising online; you can just leave the store.
sylens 6y ago
I always got the impression the schools were like after-school daycare for kids. A lot of the demo computers as well as the demo XBoxes were always full of kids playing Minecraft, Overwatch, etc. The other ones might have kids watching Youtube or Twitch (never Mixer) of the same types of games.
trimbo 6y ago
> I will say, the surfaces/laptops side of the store was usually empty. Some kids playing with the Xbox or people at the counter getting help seemed to be the extent of traffic the past couple of years. Exactly my experience last I visited. It seemed like the goal of the stores was misconceived from the start... like the purpose was to coax Surface into being a successful product, rather than build up a real store business of its own.
rsync 6y ago
"Same with the SF Westfield Center store. Great staff. It was a good place to check out various Surfaces in person as well." Agreed - about that specific store. However, I must reflect that after years of going there with my children, we spent exactly zero dollars there. We had fun and played video games and hung out and futzed around with various "exotic" computing devices from MS ... and we never had any intention of buying anything.

simonh 6y ago

I don't really see the connection. If the only traffic to the stores was a handful of people, how can this have any significant effect on customer good will? They can't be both empty and influential. It seems like the stores were a missed opportunity, but they always had the odds stacked against them. Whatever you can get in an MS store, you could get a much cheaper alternative running the same software at another electronic goods store or online. I suspect the theoretical opportunity was really a mirage and never really there.

reaperducer 6y ago
While I agree with your premise, I think that the availability of a store is a form of goodwill. You are given more confidence in a product if you know there's a place where you can go when things go wrong, or if you want to see something for real, and not just rely on some rendered image on a screen. There's an Apple Store a few blocks from me. I've never been there. But I like knowing I have the option.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > There's an Apple Store a few blocks from me. I've never been there. But I like knowing I have the option. Right - I feel like almost any city I'm going to for a conference will have an Apple store I can pop into if I have a problem. What do you do if you have a ThinkPad or System76 and you get a problem while at a conference? I guess you're out of luck and on your own.
  - OriginalPenguin 6y ago
    I have no idea for System 76, but for less than the cost of AppleCare, you can get next business day onsite service for your ThinkPad. I find that more convenient than taking your laptop to the store.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
ptero 6y ago
> It seems like the stores were a missed opportunity, but they always had the odds stacked against them. Odds were against Microsoft stores being profitable because Microsoft is now an underdog in consumer tech. If you want hardware (possibly with the exception of xbox; I just do not know, never had one), Microsoft is rarely the name that jumps to mind. But this is exactly why Microsoft should keep them (using some profits from OS and software), even at a loss, to provide demos and let folks play with their toys. Not doing this means riding much more on inertia of existing corporate Windows 10 and Office installations. This is very profitable and still has a lot of inertia, but abandoning consumer tech is putting a $1.5 trillion dollar company into a more vulnerable long-term position.
- simonh 6y ago
  But is it actually serving a purpose if not enough people are actually going into the stores, at the demos and playing with the toys? I don't think this is abandoning consumer tech. Their ~90% domination is still a thing. They gained it without stores, and the stores weren't helping them maintain it. There seems to be this cognitive lag where it seems like the stores should be a big deal, should be significant, giving them up should say something about Microsoft's position in the industry. A lot of commentary can't shake that perception. The reality though is it never was any of those things.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    I think that an interesting part of that lag is directly Windows Phone related. Phones seem to be the one consumer hardware product that customers "demand" a store to exist. Look at the retail landscape, other than big box electronics stores and office stores and Wal-Mart/Target, who is selling consumer electronics physically? There's a lot of strip malls packed with phone stores. People that want PC laptops/desktops mostly buy directly from OEMs on their websites. People that want Xboxes or PlayStations are fine grabbing it at Target, but more likely Amazon today. Phones for various reasons (and a lot of them are phone carrier bureaucracy related, I would imagine) "need" that extra bit of handholding, that service relationship when buying one. Even Apple Stores, the vast majority of the store space is devoted to phone sales and services and laptops/desktops an after-thought. If you hear of lines and busy days of Apple Stores, it is almost exclusively phones. Microsoft created their Stores just too many months too late to save the Windows Phone after the main US carriers decided 3 OSes was one too many options to carry in their own stores. Once Microsoft Stores were no longer selling Phones they always had less reason to exist, mostly existed already as either Xbox Experiences or shadow versions of (for instance) Best Buy's Surface section, without the rewards/brand loyalty of something like Best Buy.
Someone 6y ago
A helpdesk that helps you well and doesn’t have queues provides lots of goodwill, even when you don’t use it often. Such a helpdesk is expensive, though, the more so if you put it in a building in a premium location. In Apple’s case, that’s paid for by sales. I imagine Microsoft didn’t manage to do that, if only because they have less hardware to sell.
AlchemistCamp 6y ago
I used to check out the Surfaces as I walked by the windows of that store and for a while considered buying one. I didn't but it did have a (mildly) positive on my perception of MS while I lived in SF.
bobthepanda 6y ago
Was it low traffic or low sales traffic? Helpdesk traffic is unlikely to drive much in terms of immediate sales, but establishing a good helpdesk that can be trusted is very key to trust in the brand. And helpdesk is usually a get in, drop your laptop off, get out and pick it up later type of thing.
- jimmydddd 6y ago
  Agreed. I had a great walk in help desk experience with resetting a Surface. I otherwise like the Surface, but, if you search online, you can see some models seem to have an intermittant mystery power up glitch. Knowing there was a store a few minutes away that could reset the device would give me confidence to purchase another one without hesitation.
kccqzy 6y ago
It's about presence and exposure. For people (like me) who use mostly Apple products and block ads on the internet, the Microsoft products aren't really on my mind. Having a store close by that I can visit certainly increases exposure to these products. It's surprising how my own attitude changes depending on if it's online: if I see an ad for Microsoft or other brands on the Internet, I'd feel irate and start to wonder why my ad blocker stopped working. But if I see a Microsoft store taking up thousands of square feet, I don't mind its presence and would totally check it out if I am not busy.
- plussed_reader 6y ago
  You have a hard time escaping the advertising online; you can just leave the store.

sylens 6y ago

I always got the impression the schools were like after-school daycare for kids. A lot of the demo computers as well as the demo XBoxes were always full of kids playing Minecraft, Overwatch, etc. The other ones might have kids watching Youtube or Twitch (never Mixer) of the same types of games.

trimbo 6y ago

> I will say, the surfaces/laptops side of the store was usually empty. Some kids playing with the Xbox or people at the counter getting help seemed to be the extent of traffic the past couple of years. Exactly my experience last I visited. It seemed like the goal of the stores was misconceived from the start... like the purpose was to coax Surface into being a successful product, rather than build up a real store business of its own.

rsync 6y ago

"Same with the SF Westfield Center store. Great staff. It was a good place to check out various Surfaces in person as well." Agreed - about that specific store. However, I must reflect that after years of going there with my children, we spent exactly zero dollars there. We had fun and played video games and hung out and futzed around with various "exotic" computing devices from MS ... and we never had any intention of buying anything.