8 ms·

It's worth noting that while every unjustified shooting is one too many, the vast vast majority of shootings by police are unambiguously justified. The US has a

It's worth noting that while every unjustified shooting is one too many, the vast vast majority of shootings by police are unambiguously justified. The US has a lot of violent criminals, many of who are bold enough to even try to kill police officers.

minikites 6y ago
What evidence leads you to this conclusion?
- marcoperaza 6y ago
  Both of these statements can be true: 1) the vast majority of shootings by police are justified, and 2) there are way too many cases of excessive use of force by police, including shootings. You can look at the reports. They don't usually leave local news, if they even make it there, because there is nothing remarkable about them. People have done aggregations of the data. I'm not saying it's going to convince you if you're already convinced otherwise. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/10/24/on-duty-under-fire/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/10/24/o... "But only a small number of the shootings — roughly 5 percent — occurred under the kind of circumstances that raise doubt and draw public outcry, according to an analysis by The Washington Post. The vast majority of individuals shot and killed by police officers were, like Snyder, armed with guns and killed after attacking police officers or civilians or making other direct threats."
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    Frankly, that’s incredibly difficult to believe. When the cameras are off, police lie about the circumstances to make their violence seem justified. (Or even when the cameras are on — for example, the NYC police union has opposed the firing of Eric Garner’s murderer.)
    - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
      This is technically a conspiracy theory right?
      - craftinator 6y ago
        Maybe not backed by evidence, but definitely a reasonable extrapolation. Basic logic and social analysis will inform you that the role a police officer has attracts two mentalities: those who very strongly want to uphold law and help people, and those that enjoy abusing power and controlling people. Obviously these lie along a spectrum, and there is some overlap. Anecdotally, I know many of the bullies from my high school ended up being police. They enjoyed the power and feeling of beating and subjugating their classmates, and they found a job that pays well and gives them fulfillment. Let me posit this: if you were that type of individual, what better job is there to have than being a cop? Also, if you had that job, would you incriminate yourself after abusing your power, or would you lie, knowing that police protect their own and are often given the benefit of the doubt? I think it's extremely naive to assume that the situation isn't exactly as I described above. The real question is what is the ratio of abusers and bullies to helpers and law upholders.
        DFHippie 6y ago
        Also, the police omertà business means the law upholders knuckle under to the bullies or get driven out of the force.
        gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
        Kind of like the Illuminati. Or Bill Clinton's criticizers - speak up and he orders a hit! /s
        craftinator 6y ago
        Ah, never mind, don't bother responding to my comment above. I didn't realize that you are just trolling.
AlexandrB 6y ago
Is there some independent research on the subject that you’re referring to? Note that the bar for “legally justified” is extremely low[1], so it would be nice to see some kind of audit that doesn’t rely on legal rulings. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice > An FBI review by retired agent Kimberly Crawford found that Rice's death was justified and Loehmann's "response was a reasonable one."
- thinkcontext 6y ago
  WaPo did a whole series of articles on police shootings a few years back. Part of that was creating a database of all police fatal shootings since, unbelievably, none existed. One of their articles looked at every fatal police shooting in 2015 and looked at the circumstances. They found 30% occurred when the victim had pointed or brandished a gun, 28% when they had fired a gun and 16% when they had attacked some other way. They identified 5% to have occurred in a manner likely to cause public controversy. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/10/24/on-duty-under-fire https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/10/24/o...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    If these figures were accurate far more police would die in shootings every year.
    - marcoperaza 6y ago
      A police officer is murdered every week on average. I imagine the numbers for those shot at is much higher, since most gunshot wounds don't result in death and most shots probably don't result in hits.
      - renewiltord 6y ago
codr7 6y ago
Says who? From what I've seen I'm pretty sure many could be avoided using a different approach/mentality.
- tengbretson 6y ago
  You're welcome to try it.
  - codr7 6y ago
    Try what exactly? Joining the Police? Not very likely, I believe they will find themselves on the wrong team any day now. It was never about protecting and serving the people, the whole thing is a lie.
newacct583 6y ago
> the vast vast majority of shootings by police are unambiguously justified Is that so? What counts as "unambiguously justified" to your eyes? I don't see how this squares. I mean... let's pick "the dead subject initiated lethal violence first" as a reasonable proxy for what you're talking about. You're saying that in situations where someone attacks a police officer, the police are 1000/50 == twenty times more likely to win that deadly confrontation than lose? Really? They're well trained, they aren't that good shots. I think the jury is very much out on that assertion. In this era of pervasive video, we're finally getting a look at a decent fraction of these confrontations, and a shocking number are not justified at all, much less "unambiguously". I don't see how you can reasonably assert that all the unmeasured ones must be...
- piokoch 6y ago
  "You're saying that in situations where someone attacks a police officer, the police are 1000/50" Are you claiming that it would be "more fair" if this ratio was different? Should it be 50/50? I think not, I assume that at least some members of this 1000 were indeed dangerous criminals, not innocent citizens murdered by cruel police officers?
  - newacct583 6y ago
    The question wasn't about "fair", it was about "justified". And... yeah? The police aren't assassins or solidiers. They aren't supposed to kill anyone at all. When it happens, it's a tragedy that is supposed to be avoided. So when must it happen? Well, when they need to defend themselves, I guess. So yeah, I think that kill ratio becomes an important point of evidence as to how dire the need for defense was. If you come to me and tell me that the police are dying as fast as the criminals, then OK, fine, I'll buy that those are just shootouts. If it's 2:1 in favor of the police, then I guess I'd be OK with that and rationalize it as the police being better trained and more worth preserving. Four to one? Maybe. TWENTY to one? Come on. That's not reasonable on its face.
    - pnw_hazor 6y ago

minikites 6y ago

What evidence leads you to this conclusion?

marcoperaza 6y ago
Both of these statements can be true: 1) the vast majority of shootings by police are justified, and 2) there are way too many cases of excessive use of force by police, including shootings. You can look at the reports. They don't usually leave local news, if they even make it there, because there is nothing remarkable about them. People have done aggregations of the data. I'm not saying it's going to convince you if you're already convinced otherwise. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/10/24/on-duty-under-fire/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/10/24/o... "But only a small number of the shootings — roughly 5 percent — occurred under the kind of circumstances that raise doubt and draw public outcry, according to an analysis by The Washington Post. The vast majority of individuals shot and killed by police officers were, like Snyder, armed with guns and killed after attacking police officers or civilians or making other direct threats."
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  Frankly, that’s incredibly difficult to believe. When the cameras are off, police lie about the circumstances to make their violence seem justified. (Or even when the cameras are on — for example, the NYC police union has opposed the firing of Eric Garner’s murderer.)
  - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    This is technically a conspiracy theory right?
    - craftinator 6y ago
      Maybe not backed by evidence, but definitely a reasonable extrapolation. Basic logic and social analysis will inform you that the role a police officer has attracts two mentalities: those who very strongly want to uphold law and help people, and those that enjoy abusing power and controlling people. Obviously these lie along a spectrum, and there is some overlap. Anecdotally, I know many of the bullies from my high school ended up being police. They enjoyed the power and feeling of beating and subjugating their classmates, and they found a job that pays well and gives them fulfillment. Let me posit this: if you were that type of individual, what better job is there to have than being a cop? Also, if you had that job, would you incriminate yourself after abusing your power, or would you lie, knowing that police protect their own and are often given the benefit of the doubt? I think it's extremely naive to assume that the situation isn't exactly as I described above. The real question is what is the ratio of abusers and bullies to helpers and law upholders.
      - DFHippie 6y ago
        Also, the police omertà business means the law upholders knuckle under to the bullies or get driven out of the force.
        gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
        Kind of like the Illuminati. Or Bill Clinton's criticizers - speak up and he orders a hit! /s
        craftinator 6y ago
        Ah, never mind, don't bother responding to my comment above. I didn't realize that you are just trolling.

AlexandrB 6y ago

Is there some independent research on the subject that you’re referring to? Note that the bar for “legally justified” is extremely low[1], so it would be nice to see some kind of audit that doesn’t rely on legal rulings. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice > An FBI review by retired agent Kimberly Crawford found that Rice's death was justified and Loehmann's "response was a reasonable one."

thinkcontext 6y ago
WaPo did a whole series of articles on police shootings a few years back. Part of that was creating a database of all police fatal shootings since, unbelievably, none existed. One of their articles looked at every fatal police shooting in 2015 and looked at the circumstances. They found 30% occurred when the victim had pointed or brandished a gun, 28% when they had fired a gun and 16% when they had attacked some other way. They identified 5% to have occurred in a manner likely to cause public controversy. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/10/24/on-duty-under-fire https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/10/24/o...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  If these figures were accurate far more police would die in shootings every year.
  - marcoperaza 6y ago
    A police officer is murdered every week on average. I imagine the numbers for those shot at is much higher, since most gunshot wounds don't result in death and most shots probably don't result in hits.
    - renewiltord 6y ago

codr7 6y ago

Says who? From what I've seen I'm pretty sure many could be avoided using a different approach/mentality.

tengbretson 6y ago
You're welcome to try it.
- codr7 6y ago
  Try what exactly? Joining the Police? Not very likely, I believe they will find themselves on the wrong team any day now. It was never about protecting and serving the people, the whole thing is a lie.

newacct583 6y ago

> the vast vast majority of shootings by police are unambiguously justified Is that so? What counts as "unambiguously justified" to your eyes? I don't see how this squares. I mean... let's pick "the dead subject initiated lethal violence first" as a reasonable proxy for what you're talking about. You're saying that in situations where someone attacks a police officer, the police are 1000/50 == twenty times more likely to win that deadly confrontation than lose? Really? They're well trained, they aren't that good shots. I think the jury is very much out on that assertion. In this era of pervasive video, we're finally getting a look at a decent fraction of these confrontations, and a shocking number are not justified at all, much less "unambiguously". I don't see how you can reasonably assert that all the unmeasured ones must be...

piokoch 6y ago
"You're saying that in situations where someone attacks a police officer, the police are 1000/50" Are you claiming that it would be "more fair" if this ratio was different? Should it be 50/50? I think not, I assume that at least some members of this 1000 were indeed dangerous criminals, not innocent citizens murdered by cruel police officers?
- newacct583 6y ago
  The question wasn't about "fair", it was about "justified". And... yeah? The police aren't assassins or solidiers. They aren't supposed to kill anyone at all. When it happens, it's a tragedy that is supposed to be avoided. So when must it happen? Well, when they need to defend themselves, I guess. So yeah, I think that kill ratio becomes an important point of evidence as to how dire the need for defense was. If you come to me and tell me that the police are dying as fast as the criminals, then OK, fine, I'll buy that those are just shootouts. If it's 2:1 in favor of the police, then I guess I'd be OK with that and rationalize it as the police being better trained and more worth preserving. Four to one? Maybe. TWENTY to one? Come on. That's not reasonable on its face.
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago