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I take issue with this statement/argument based on the fact that there have been several people in jail for releasing material to wikileaks that revealed the gr

I take issue with this statement/argument based on the fact that there have been several people in jail for releasing material to wikileaks that revealed the grotesque amount of Human Rights violations, not least of which the video showing how some soldiers will kill in cold blood: Collateral Murder. This ended up seeing Manning get thrown in jail, be tortured for years in isolation, as well as having attempted suicide several times while in jail (again! after getting a communicated sentence by Obama)_the last time for refusing to testify against others involved. And Assange has also had to suffer a confined existence, been dragged out of the Ecuadorian Embassy and placed in jail and still awaits trial while his health and mental health have deteriorated, I'd say his near 8 year amount of torture as a direct result of the Military trying to cover up misconduct showed the World just how perverse both systems really are. I'm not even going to get into things like the use of Contractors like Black Water/Xe, or black-sites/rendition camps, and spies. All I will say is read Jeremy Scahill's work, this pro-Military narrative seems entirely jingoistic and akin to 9/11 ahead of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, I have vets in both wars in my family and have seen the consequences first hand, to me and alarming as the tensions between the CCP and the US are accelerating. Just so its clear, I despise the CCP but War is not a solution or an option we should accept.

varjag 6y ago
There 's really few tyrants left Assange has not been willing to support, screw him.
- FpUser 6y ago
  Would you apply the same logic (screw them) in regards to world powers? None of them ever hesitated to support tyrants when it did suit their goals.
  - varjag 6y ago
    …yes? Is that a trick question? Supporting tyrants against their people on some feeble 18th century concept of 'sovereignty' is why we have the crisis of the last decade in the first place. Freedom for everyone or screw it all.
    - wwright 6y ago
      Out of curiosity, what is the “crisis of the last decade?” Honest question here, I’m personally not aware of any “crisis” that hasn’t been ongoing for several decades before the 2010s.
      - varjag 6y ago
        The world-wide rise of authoritarian right, propelled by refugee crisis, which in turn is a consequence of appeasing tyrants.
    - FpUser 6y ago
      "feeble 18th century concept of 'sovereignty'" - you are willing to do away with the borders? "Screw it all" also sounds very practical
      - varjag 6y ago
        I will do away with concept of sovereign, a non-elected owner of a territory. Non democratic countries are not real countries. And screw it all is a right attitude, uncomfortable it may be to gatekeepers of freedom realpoliticking in their safe countries.
        lobotryas 6y ago
        Wait, you actually want “America world police”? And who decides what is or is not democratic? In your world, what would you do against Saudi Arabia (I assume you’d see them as not democratic and thus not a real country)?
        FpUser 6y ago
        The "world police" is already here. Look at all the downvotes as soon as someone disagrees with the party line. Democracy my a$$.
        FpUser 6y ago
        "Non democratic countries are not real countries." Lemme up the ante. Countries without free medicine and guaranteed basic income are not real countries". Someone need to come and teach them a nice lesson. "Screwing" will help as well.
fhqghds 6y ago
The take away from this should be: Look how fucking horrible behavior can be when even when the organization has a publicly stated stance of holding members accountable, and occasionally actually does so. Now imagine the fucking horrible behavior that doesn't even manage to get surfaced in an organization that takes a public stance of not holding members or itself accountable. The military is far far from perfect. The police still manage to be worse. And that's fucking terrifying.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > The military is far far from perfect. The police still manage to be worse. And that's fucking terrifying. Having been personally subject to police violence for my life as an activist several times: I only sort of agree, which is why I said look as Jermey's work and draw your own conclusion. I can tell you right now: my experiences do not even remotely compare to that of the normal civilian in Vietnam or Laos during those wars, I went to school with many of the children of that generation and it would be outright offensive if I tried to compare our experiences; let alone that of the Iraqi or Afghani people who are living in a literal nuclear waste land due to the constant bombing and use of depleted uranium munitions on their land while being 'shocked and awed' into submission. Many of who I'm sure would tell you were just as oppressed by the Saddam regimes as well as the 'Taliban' but have found themselves in perhaps the worst of all possible situations in a horrible Humanitarian crises as they were 'liberated' by the US. While the world continues to ignore that.
astine 6y ago
Chelsea Manning was not involved in the "collateral murder" leak.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > Chelsea Manning was not involved in the "collateral murder" leak. True, he testified and said it was an unclassified video. You're right. However, the ire of the State was such that you'd think it had been, and that's the point. How can whistle-blowers like Manning or Snowden be treated in this manner when all they're doing is exposing the material that should be afforded to every citizen to scrutinize, and if I'm honest if we did we would stop calling the US anything but yet another Empire with all the Human Right's violations that they all commit. Moreover, he isn't alone: so many from Binney, Drake etc... This is systemic Imperial decree that is masked as Law when in reality we've been here before with the Pentagon papers and Daniel Ellsberg. In short, I don't think there are 'good guys' in this narrative of Police vs Military and both need to be vastly reformed. From the very inception of this country, its General who led the Revolution stated that Government is a necessary evil, and should be regarded as such with certain vanguards that protect the People from the eventual Tyranny (even his own) that they all succumb to. Jefferson then went on to enshrine into the Deceleration of Independence and his philosophy leading up to his presidency, which was underwhelming by his standards of radical, and fringe Idealism he had supported up until then.
  - Enginerrrd 6y ago
    Manning and Snowden should never be compared as whistleblowers. Snowden has so much moral high ground in the form of responsible disclosure compared to Manning that it does him a disservice to put him in the same sentence as Manning.
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
      > Manning and Snowden should never be compared as whistleblowers I disagree entirely, and despite my preference with Ed as his involvement encompasses Bitcoin, general cryptonerd stuff and the fact that I really enjoyed the 1/2 of Permanent Record I read, I still think Manning has shown great conviction under horrible circumstances and continues to Freedom Fight under constant horrible duress and personal harm. I don't have heroes, but if I did the two would hold equally high positions given the efforts to inform the public at personal sacrifice to their careers and Life.
austincheney 6y ago
That is completely and deliberately out of context. Manning released greater than 750,000 documents and almost all of them had nothing to do with violence of any kind. So much out of context that whistleblowing was never raised as any form of defense by Manning’s civilian attorney.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  You're taking issue with something I said, but proving my point for me. He shouldn't be subject to this torture for releasing cables. Collateral Murder was unclassified, but in the reactionary affairs of the Military Police it was as if he is the one who did it all. He was doomed to damnation for convictions he felt he had, and had to suffer for doing so. I'm not sure how some of you are attributing this when there is a clear paragraph denoting what they were doing was a duty to anyone who actually believes in what the US is asking you to do when you join its ranks: protect the Constitution, which includes informing the People of what is being done with their taxes as well in their name that ultimately makes the world less safe. But he did not release the Collateral Murder video, it just ran simultaneously in the news cycle as Wikileaks cable releases were being run and got more attention than how a Secretary of State's role was to make way for US corporations to get stronger footholes into emerging S. American Countries in return for certain 'diplomatic' favors , and how the Intelligence agencies spied on them in the process. Seriously, read Jermey's work, as well John Perkins' book Confessions of an Economic Hitman, this was regarded as the norm even before the cables were ever released by many sources. So, to be clear: Manning and Snowden alike released classified information regarding Cables or internal documents of how Intelligence agencies operate in and outside the US and respectively have been crucified for it.
  - rovolo 6y ago
    I think you're referring to Manning and not Snowden in your first paragraph because you reference the 'Military Police', so you should s/he/she/.
GordonS 6y ago
With the military, it ses to depend on the scale. If it's one bad actor, they'll get court marshalled. If it's several (e.g. Abu Graib; possibly misspelled), or if it's systemic (e.g. no care whatsoever for collateral damage, such as shooting civilians or bombing schools and hospitals), then the powers that be will stop at nothing to cover it up or play it down.

varjag 6y ago

There 's really few tyrants left Assange has not been willing to support, screw him.

FpUser 6y ago
Would you apply the same logic (screw them) in regards to world powers? None of them ever hesitated to support tyrants when it did suit their goals.
- varjag 6y ago
  …yes? Is that a trick question? Supporting tyrants against their people on some feeble 18th century concept of 'sovereignty' is why we have the crisis of the last decade in the first place. Freedom for everyone or screw it all.
  - wwright 6y ago
    Out of curiosity, what is the “crisis of the last decade?” Honest question here, I’m personally not aware of any “crisis” that hasn’t been ongoing for several decades before the 2010s.
    - varjag 6y ago
      The world-wide rise of authoritarian right, propelled by refugee crisis, which in turn is a consequence of appeasing tyrants.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    "feeble 18th century concept of 'sovereignty'" - you are willing to do away with the borders? "Screw it all" also sounds very practical
    - varjag 6y ago
      I will do away with concept of sovereign, a non-elected owner of a territory. Non democratic countries are not real countries. And screw it all is a right attitude, uncomfortable it may be to gatekeepers of freedom realpoliticking in their safe countries.
      - lobotryas 6y ago
        Wait, you actually want “America world police”? And who decides what is or is not democratic? In your world, what would you do against Saudi Arabia (I assume you’d see them as not democratic and thus not a real country)?
        FpUser 6y ago
        The "world police" is already here. Look at all the downvotes as soon as someone disagrees with the party line. Democracy my a$$.
      - FpUser 6y ago
        "Non democratic countries are not real countries." Lemme up the ante. Countries without free medicine and guaranteed basic income are not real countries". Someone need to come and teach them a nice lesson. "Screwing" will help as well.

fhqghds 6y ago

The take away from this should be: Look how fucking horrible behavior can be when even when the organization has a publicly stated stance of holding members accountable, and occasionally actually does so. Now imagine the fucking horrible behavior that doesn't even manage to get surfaced in an organization that takes a public stance of not holding members or itself accountable. The military is far far from perfect. The police still manage to be worse. And that's fucking terrifying.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> The military is far far from perfect. The police still manage to be worse. And that's fucking terrifying. Having been personally subject to police violence for my life as an activist several times: I only sort of agree, which is why I said look as Jermey's work and draw your own conclusion. I can tell you right now: my experiences do not even remotely compare to that of the normal civilian in Vietnam or Laos during those wars, I went to school with many of the children of that generation and it would be outright offensive if I tried to compare our experiences; let alone that of the Iraqi or Afghani people who are living in a literal nuclear waste land due to the constant bombing and use of depleted uranium munitions on their land while being 'shocked and awed' into submission. Many of who I'm sure would tell you were just as oppressed by the Saddam regimes as well as the 'Taliban' but have found themselves in perhaps the worst of all possible situations in a horrible Humanitarian crises as they were 'liberated' by the US. While the world continues to ignore that.

astine 6y ago

Chelsea Manning was not involved in the "collateral murder" leak.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Chelsea Manning was not involved in the "collateral murder" leak. True, he testified and said it was an unclassified video. You're right. However, the ire of the State was such that you'd think it had been, and that's the point. How can whistle-blowers like Manning or Snowden be treated in this manner when all they're doing is exposing the material that should be afforded to every citizen to scrutinize, and if I'm honest if we did we would stop calling the US anything but yet another Empire with all the Human Right's violations that they all commit. Moreover, he isn't alone: so many from Binney, Drake etc... This is systemic Imperial decree that is masked as Law when in reality we've been here before with the Pentagon papers and Daniel Ellsberg. In short, I don't think there are 'good guys' in this narrative of Police vs Military and both need to be vastly reformed. From the very inception of this country, its General who led the Revolution stated that Government is a necessary evil, and should be regarded as such with certain vanguards that protect the People from the eventual Tyranny (even his own) that they all succumb to. Jefferson then went on to enshrine into the Deceleration of Independence and his philosophy leading up to his presidency, which was underwhelming by his standards of radical, and fringe Idealism he had supported up until then.
- Enginerrrd 6y ago
  Manning and Snowden should never be compared as whistleblowers. Snowden has so much moral high ground in the form of responsible disclosure compared to Manning that it does him a disservice to put him in the same sentence as Manning.
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > Manning and Snowden should never be compared as whistleblowers I disagree entirely, and despite my preference with Ed as his involvement encompasses Bitcoin, general cryptonerd stuff and the fact that I really enjoyed the 1/2 of Permanent Record I read, I still think Manning has shown great conviction under horrible circumstances and continues to Freedom Fight under constant horrible duress and personal harm. I don't have heroes, but if I did the two would hold equally high positions given the efforts to inform the public at personal sacrifice to their careers and Life.

austincheney 6y ago

That is completely and deliberately out of context. Manning released greater than 750,000 documents and almost all of them had nothing to do with violence of any kind. So much out of context that whistleblowing was never raised as any form of defense by Manning’s civilian attorney.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
You're taking issue with something I said, but proving my point for me. He shouldn't be subject to this torture for releasing cables. Collateral Murder was unclassified, but in the reactionary affairs of the Military Police it was as if he is the one who did it all. He was doomed to damnation for convictions he felt he had, and had to suffer for doing so. I'm not sure how some of you are attributing this when there is a clear paragraph denoting what they were doing was a duty to anyone who actually believes in what the US is asking you to do when you join its ranks: protect the Constitution, which includes informing the People of what is being done with their taxes as well in their name that ultimately makes the world less safe. But he did not release the Collateral Murder video, it just ran simultaneously in the news cycle as Wikileaks cable releases were being run and got more attention than how a Secretary of State's role was to make way for US corporations to get stronger footholes into emerging S. American Countries in return for certain 'diplomatic' favors , and how the Intelligence agencies spied on them in the process. Seriously, read Jermey's work, as well John Perkins' book Confessions of an Economic Hitman, this was regarded as the norm even before the cables were ever released by many sources. So, to be clear: Manning and Snowden alike released classified information regarding Cables or internal documents of how Intelligence agencies operate in and outside the US and respectively have been crucified for it.
- rovolo 6y ago
  I think you're referring to Manning and not Snowden in your first paragraph because you reference the 'Military Police', so you should s/he/she/.

GordonS 6y ago

With the military, it ses to depend on the scale. If it's one bad actor, they'll get court marshalled. If it's several (e.g. Abu Graib; possibly misspelled), or if it's systemic (e.g. no care whatsoever for collateral damage, such as shooting civilians or bombing schools and hospitals), then the powers that be will stop at nothing to cover it up or play it down.