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I never used PHP so correct me if I'm missing something here, but "you need to use a framework to build good applications in PHP" (which kinda implies that it i

I never used PHP so correct me if I'm missing something here, but "you need to use a framework to build good applications in PHP" (which kinda implies that it is hard/impossible otherwise) doesn't sound like an argument in favor of the language.

ragnese 6y ago
You're spot on. PHP is really bad, but zillions of hours have gone into tools around and on top of the language such that it's actually not that bad to develop in anymore. Why was all this time spent on PHP instead of doing anything else? I don't have a clue.
- soulclap 6y ago
  That makes me wonder: why do you spend so many hours badmouthing PHP in multiple threads on here? Why isn't that time spent on something else?
  - ragnese 6y ago
    Being on Hacker News is leisure time. If you work on making PHP suck less purely for leisure, I reserve no judgement. If you are a Laravel author, my question stands.
    - wsatb 6y ago
      The answer is the same reason you build anything: there was a need for it, especially in the early 2010's for the language.
cafard 6y ago
I am not a PHP fan. However, in what language does one not use a framework to build applications?
- capableweb 6y ago
  Many. Clojure/Script applications tends to favor your own composition of libraries rather than a full-fledged framework. Golang is (at least used to) the same as well.
- vbrandl 6y ago
  I would grant that point if PHP's main focus weren't web applications. One would expect the language to bring everything you'd need to build a web application. (again: maybe that's just my perception of PHP but I don't think there are many other kinds of application, PHP is used for)
- mekster 6y ago
  I never use one. I have my own scaffolding code that does better than anything else for my use. Much faster without unnecessary processing that I never use, no weird rules on routing but it's all linked to file name, so it's easier to figure where to look and no ORM but plain SQL that is easier to optimize and know what's going on and it has multi site capability and they're all hosted under different sub domains to keep clear separations of what code is shared and what isn't and lastly logging is far better as they're grouped together by access and not just display logs of different accesses all mixed up which is useless. If you know what you're doing, frameworks drag you around for no good reason. The only reason I'd use one is if a team wants common knowledge to develop it but otherwise I never want one. And you mention "any application"? Why would any application not be built without using a framework? Unless you mean libraries that link to your app and not something you base your whole app on.

ragnese 6y ago

You're spot on. PHP is really bad, but zillions of hours have gone into tools around and on top of the language such that it's actually not that bad to develop in anymore. Why was all this time spent on PHP instead of doing anything else? I don't have a clue.

soulclap 6y ago
That makes me wonder: why do you spend so many hours badmouthing PHP in multiple threads on here? Why isn't that time spent on something else?
- ragnese 6y ago
  Being on Hacker News is leisure time. If you work on making PHP suck less purely for leisure, I reserve no judgement. If you are a Laravel author, my question stands.
  - wsatb 6y ago
    The answer is the same reason you build anything: there was a need for it, especially in the early 2010's for the language.

cafard 6y ago

I am not a PHP fan. However, in what language does one not use a framework to build applications?

capableweb 6y ago
Many. Clojure/Script applications tends to favor your own composition of libraries rather than a full-fledged framework. Golang is (at least used to) the same as well.
vbrandl 6y ago
I would grant that point if PHP's main focus weren't web applications. One would expect the language to bring everything you'd need to build a web application. (again: maybe that's just my perception of PHP but I don't think there are many other kinds of application, PHP is used for)
mekster 6y ago
I never use one. I have my own scaffolding code that does better than anything else for my use. Much faster without unnecessary processing that I never use, no weird rules on routing but it's all linked to file name, so it's easier to figure where to look and no ORM but plain SQL that is easier to optimize and know what's going on and it has multi site capability and they're all hosted under different sub domains to keep clear separations of what code is shared and what isn't and lastly logging is far better as they're grouped together by access and not just display logs of different accesses all mixed up which is useless. If you know what you're doing, frameworks drag you around for no good reason. The only reason I'd use one is if a team wants common knowledge to develop it but otherwise I never want one. And you mention "any application"? Why would any application not be built without using a framework? Unless you mean libraries that link to your app and not something you base your whole app on.