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> I like bitcoin but it's hugely wasteful. Wasteful compared to what? > It's also terrible to use as a peer-to-peer payment option because it's expensive, slo

by 1ark 6y ago

> I like bitcoin but it's hugely wasteful. Wasteful compared to what? > It's also terrible to use as a peer-to-peer payment option because it's expensive, slow, and the value fluctuates (in March this year it lost 50% of its value in just a few days) It's possible to transact in a matter of minutes. After that you can move it to a stable coin if you want to be exposed to USD (or gold) instead.

bouncycastle 6y ago
> Wasteful compared to what? Compared to every alternative. Look up the sources I've linked,. the amount of energy used by Bitcoin is ludacris and unsustainable. > It's possible to transact in a matter of minutes 10 minutes on average, but that's only 1 confirmation. You'll need to wait 6 before you can ship the goods. Current cost is $0.50 - so both slow and expensive. (source https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fee-calculator/ https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fee-calculator/) > After that you can move it to a stable coin There are no stable coins on bitcoin (that I'm aware of) and you can't use one nativelly. Even if there are, they are custodial risks involved plus moving requires another transaction.
- madmaniak 6y ago
  There's no safe alternative in sources you've linked. Also traditional system has huge cost hidden in inflation. The cost of bitcoin and all these footprints is minimal - you get rid off central banks, banks, visa and others. They have the biggest buildings all around the planet filled with the most expensive workers - all the infrastructure runs on much more electricity than few households. And you compare only the payment process cost. What a luck of imagination.
  - bouncycastle 6y ago
    Hidden inflation? Most top GDP economies of the world target the inflation rate to 2% which is about on par with the current issuance rate of Bitcoin. So most people don't understand that Bitcoin is currently powered by its own inflation.
    - madmaniak 6y ago
      I see you didn't get the word hidden and say what economies are openly and loudly announcing. No offence. Can you explain the last claim, as I'm the one who in this case is included into the most people.
      - bouncycastle 6y ago
        It's not hidden at all. Most developed economies including USA & UK target 2% inflation. Here you go https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation https://www.stlouisfed.org/open-vault/2019/january/fed-inflation-target-2-percent#:~:text=To%20meet%20the%20price%20stability,and%20how%20it%20is%20measured https://www.stlouisfed.org/open-vault/2019/january/fed-infla.... Actually, top GDP economies now have a major problem since the inflation is way below 2%.
- sekai 6y ago
  > 10 minutes on average, but that's only 1 confirmation. You'll need to wait 6 before you can ship the goods. Current cost is $0.50 - so both slow and expensive. (source https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fee-calculator/ https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fee-calculator/) Oh boy, wait till you hear about international money transfers.
  - bouncycastle 6y ago
    You mean those old telegraphic transfers? Why should I use that? With my PayPal/Mastercard/GooglePay/ApplePay I can do an international order in seconds.
    - rodiger 6y ago
      Processing != complete. A credit card transaction generally takes 1-3 days to process. Bitcoin is start -> complete in < 10 mins on average.
      - bouncycastle 6y ago
        Nope. 10 minutes for bitcoin is just 1 confirmation. Most exchanges need 3, but it may take significantly more if you don't put enough fees on the transaction. Meanwhile Credit cards/ApplePay/GooglePay/Paypal/AmazonPay provide the tap-and-go instant purchase experience, even on international orders.
        GoblinSlayer 6y ago
        Then it gets disputed and reverted, up to 1 month after tap-and-go.
        andirk 6y ago
        Credit issuers insure their transactions. BTC has no insurance. Speed of transaction is instant for both.
- DennisP 6y ago
  All true, but Ethereum has a noncustodial stable coin. Ethereum is planning to move to proof of stake over the next couple years, which not only reduces energy use dramatically but speeds up transaction finality. There are multi-client testnets running the final PoS spec right now.
espadrine 6y ago
> Wasteful compared to what? Obviously, it is more energy-intensive than an RTGS (ie. a traditional central bank), which also sports low volatility. But even if you want a distributed, open-membership system, Stellar has only a marginal increase in energy consumption, a tiny slimmer of the amount needed for Bitcoin. (Obviously, it is volatile, though.)
- cft 6y ago
  A traditional large central bank requires the government, the legal system and the military to back up the fiat, which is more expensive than electricity for the miners.
  - espadrine 6y ago
    How so? They are all necessary regardless of the currency. Nobody (ie. less than 0.0001% of the population) wants to live in a lawless society, and if they achieved it, they would be conquered by a lawful one.

by 1ark 6y ago

bouncycastle 6y ago

> Wasteful compared to what? Compared to every alternative. Look up the sources I've linked,. the amount of energy used by Bitcoin is ludacris and unsustainable. > It's possible to transact in a matter of minutes 10 minutes on average, but that's only 1 confirmation. You'll need to wait 6 before you can ship the goods. Current cost is $0.50 - so both slow and expensive. (source https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fee-calculator/ https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fee-calculator/) > After that you can move it to a stable coin There are no stable coins on bitcoin (that I'm aware of) and you can't use one nativelly. Even if there are, they are custodial risks involved plus moving requires another transaction.

madmaniak 6y ago
There's no safe alternative in sources you've linked. Also traditional system has huge cost hidden in inflation. The cost of bitcoin and all these footprints is minimal - you get rid off central banks, banks, visa and others. They have the biggest buildings all around the planet filled with the most expensive workers - all the infrastructure runs on much more electricity than few households. And you compare only the payment process cost. What a luck of imagination.
- bouncycastle 6y ago
  Hidden inflation? Most top GDP economies of the world target the inflation rate to 2% which is about on par with the current issuance rate of Bitcoin. So most people don't understand that Bitcoin is currently powered by its own inflation.
  - madmaniak 6y ago
    I see you didn't get the word hidden and say what economies are openly and loudly announcing. No offence. Can you explain the last claim, as I'm the one who in this case is included into the most people.
    - bouncycastle 6y ago
      It's not hidden at all. Most developed economies including USA & UK target 2% inflation. Here you go https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation https://www.stlouisfed.org/open-vault/2019/january/fed-inflation-target-2-percent#:~:text=To%20meet%20the%20price%20stability,and%20how%20it%20is%20measured https://www.stlouisfed.org/open-vault/2019/january/fed-infla.... Actually, top GDP economies now have a major problem since the inflation is way below 2%.
sekai 6y ago
> 10 minutes on average, but that's only 1 confirmation. You'll need to wait 6 before you can ship the goods. Current cost is $0.50 - so both slow and expensive. (source https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fee-calculator/ https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fee-calculator/) Oh boy, wait till you hear about international money transfers.
- bouncycastle 6y ago
  You mean those old telegraphic transfers? Why should I use that? With my PayPal/Mastercard/GooglePay/ApplePay I can do an international order in seconds.
  - rodiger 6y ago
    Processing != complete. A credit card transaction generally takes 1-3 days to process. Bitcoin is start -> complete in < 10 mins on average.
    - bouncycastle 6y ago
      Nope. 10 minutes for bitcoin is just 1 confirmation. Most exchanges need 3, but it may take significantly more if you don't put enough fees on the transaction. Meanwhile Credit cards/ApplePay/GooglePay/Paypal/AmazonPay provide the tap-and-go instant purchase experience, even on international orders.
      - GoblinSlayer 6y ago
        Then it gets disputed and reverted, up to 1 month after tap-and-go.
        andirk 6y ago
        Credit issuers insure their transactions. BTC has no insurance. Speed of transaction is instant for both.
DennisP 6y ago
All true, but Ethereum has a noncustodial stable coin. Ethereum is planning to move to proof of stake over the next couple years, which not only reduces energy use dramatically but speeds up transaction finality. There are multi-client testnets running the final PoS spec right now.

espadrine 6y ago

> Wasteful compared to what? Obviously, it is more energy-intensive than an RTGS (ie. a traditional central bank), which also sports low volatility. But even if you want a distributed, open-membership system, Stellar has only a marginal increase in energy consumption, a tiny slimmer of the amount needed for Bitcoin. (Obviously, it is volatile, though.)

cft 6y ago
A traditional large central bank requires the government, the legal system and the military to back up the fiat, which is more expensive than electricity for the miners.
- espadrine 6y ago
  How so? They are all necessary regardless of the currency. Nobody (ie. less than 0.0001% of the population) wants to live in a lawless society, and if they achieved it, they would be conquered by a lawful one.