3 ms·

> Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot training program? Well, that training costs close to $100,000, takes up to 2 years,

> Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot training program? Well, that training costs close to $100,000, takes up to 2 years, the fake pilots would have to pass several written, practical and medical tests. > They didn't do very well In Asian culture, staff only get promoted (one-way up) over time. So the concept of failing one of your pilots is a hard sell for local examiners - it would be scandalous behavior to flunk their sim ride. S. Korea rotates in US CFIs until they find compliant ones that will endorse, otherwise they're sent back to the US. Or they just use locals to rubber-stamp logbooks. One of the few recent US airline accidents was the SFO Asiana crash, which is the poster child for "not doing very well." (although why SFO turns off their ILS all the time is bizarre.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

wishiwasoutside 6y ago
"in Asian culture" why are you using Korean anecdotes to explain a Pakistani problem?
- theduder99 6y ago
  hackernews
- 1024core 6y ago
  Last I checked, Pakistan was in Asia....?
  - skissane 6y ago
    I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. Different languages, different religions, different traditions, different histories, etc. So claiming they both share "Asian culture" is rather dubious since it isn't very clear what is this "Asian culture" which they allegedly both share. Some Asian countries do have some common cultural heritage. Japan and Korea were both heavily influenced by Chinese culture, for example. But, Pakistan and Korea, what common cultural heritage do they have?
    - redis_mlc 6y ago
      > I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. No, we're talking about aviation, and the point is this. Both have a large percentage of ex-military pilots in civil aviation. The military is hierarchical, same as Asian culture in general. Both SK and likely Pakistan would fire a contract US CFI for busting a pilot on a sim ride, and then have a local massage the results into a pass.
      - skissane 6y ago
        If you worded your point as "countries with hierarchical cultures and whose aviation industry is dominated by ex-military pilots have this problem" I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent. It isn't making that point, it is making it in combination with the fallacious assumption there is such a thing as an "Asian culture" (as opposed to "Asian cultures") Is it only Asian countries which have hierarchical cultures and aviation industries dominated by ex-military? Might some countries in other continents have the same situation? Conversely, might some Asian countries lack that situation?
        redis_mlc 6y ago
        > I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent. I never asked for your agreement. If you want to explore that further, here's an exercise for you. Name one Asian country over 50 million people that doesn't revere their elders. Back to aviation ... The West adopted CRM decades ago, which really helped with interpersonal issues in the cockpit. The concept of pilot flying (controls) and pilot non-flying (FMS and radio) are used, and takeoffs and landings are alternated. Other countries have been slower to embrace CRM, and military and traditional cultural hierarchy issues made that more so. So there are still issues where the captain tells the co-pilot to just sit there, and the co-pilot is afraid to tell the captain of deviations, resulting in accidents. I give Lionair credit for the excellent CRM during their first 737 MAX incident handling, where a 3rd pilot was able to work with the active crew to save the airplane. (The second incident caused an accident.)
  - qtplatypus 6y ago
    Asia stretches from Turkey to Japan has 59% of the worlds population. The idea that there is a single unified Asian culture is absurd. A salary man drinking with his workmates in Shinjuku has very little in common with a devout sober Muslim in the hills of Tajikistan. Hell the cultural values of mainland China, Hong Kong and Taiwan have diverged and they share a common history.

wishiwasoutside 6y ago

"in Asian culture" why are you using Korean anecdotes to explain a Pakistani problem?

theduder99 6y ago
hackernews
1024core 6y ago
Last I checked, Pakistan was in Asia....?
- skissane 6y ago
  I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. Different languages, different religions, different traditions, different histories, etc. So claiming they both share "Asian culture" is rather dubious since it isn't very clear what is this "Asian culture" which they allegedly both share. Some Asian countries do have some common cultural heritage. Japan and Korea were both heavily influenced by Chinese culture, for example. But, Pakistan and Korea, what common cultural heritage do they have?
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    > I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. No, we're talking about aviation, and the point is this. Both have a large percentage of ex-military pilots in civil aviation. The military is hierarchical, same as Asian culture in general. Both SK and likely Pakistan would fire a contract US CFI for busting a pilot on a sim ride, and then have a local massage the results into a pass.
    - skissane 6y ago
      If you worded your point as "countries with hierarchical cultures and whose aviation industry is dominated by ex-military pilots have this problem" I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent. It isn't making that point, it is making it in combination with the fallacious assumption there is such a thing as an "Asian culture" (as opposed to "Asian cultures") Is it only Asian countries which have hierarchical cultures and aviation industries dominated by ex-military? Might some countries in other continents have the same situation? Conversely, might some Asian countries lack that situation?
      - redis_mlc 6y ago
        > I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent. I never asked for your agreement. If you want to explore that further, here's an exercise for you. Name one Asian country over 50 million people that doesn't revere their elders. Back to aviation ... The West adopted CRM decades ago, which really helped with interpersonal issues in the cockpit. The concept of pilot flying (controls) and pilot non-flying (FMS and radio) are used, and takeoffs and landings are alternated. Other countries have been slower to embrace CRM, and military and traditional cultural hierarchy issues made that more so. So there are still issues where the captain tells the co-pilot to just sit there, and the co-pilot is afraid to tell the captain of deviations, resulting in accidents. I give Lionair credit for the excellent CRM during their first 737 MAX incident handling, where a 3rd pilot was able to work with the active crew to save the airplane. (The second incident caused an accident.)
- qtplatypus 6y ago
  Asia stretches from Turkey to Japan has 59% of the worlds population. The idea that there is a single unified Asian culture is absurd. A salary man drinking with his workmates in Shinjuku has very little in common with a devout sober Muslim in the hills of Tajikistan. Hell the cultural values of mainland China, Hong Kong and Taiwan have diverged and they share a common history.