5 ms·

Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot training program? If they really do need the pilots that badly, and the fake pilots dem

Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot training program? If they really do need the pilots that badly, and the fake pilots demonstrate an interest in the job, why not just pay for their flight training directly and keep them grounded until that training is complete?

rob74 6y ago
I think you misunderstand the situation. From the point of view of the fake pilots, everything was just fine: they were doing a great job, the missing or dubious licenses were just a small formality, and the authorities couldn't force them to do anything...
t0mas88 6y ago
That training would probably fail. I've seen a few licensed pilots with a real license from a country that isn't ICAO standard (and I'm going to guess Pakistan is like that as well) sit in flight training. They didn't do very well, lots of bad habits, not a very enthusiastic attitude towards a training they think they don't need.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot training program? Well, that training costs close to $100,000, takes up to 2 years, the fake pilots would have to pass several written, practical and medical tests. > They didn't do very well In Asian culture, staff only get promoted (one-way up) over time. So the concept of failing one of your pilots is a hard sell for local examiners - it would be scandalous behavior to flunk their sim ride. S. Korea rotates in US CFIs until they find compliant ones that will endorse, otherwise they're sent back to the US. Or they just use locals to rubber-stamp logbooks. One of the few recent US airline accidents was the SFO Asiana crash, which is the poster child for "not doing very well." (although why SFO turns off their ILS all the time is bizarre.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214
  - wishiwasoutside 6y ago
    "in Asian culture" why are you using Korean anecdotes to explain a Pakistani problem?
    - theduder99 6y ago
      hackernews
    - 1024core 6y ago
      Last I checked, Pakistan was in Asia....?
      - skissane 6y ago
        I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. Different languages, different religions, different traditions, different histories, etc. So claiming they both share "Asian culture" is rather dubious since it isn't very clear what is this "Asian culture" which they allegedly both share. Some Asian countries do have some common cultural heritage. Japan and Korea were both heavily influenced by Chinese culture, for example. But, Pakistan and Korea, what common cultural heritage do they have?
        redis_mlc 6y ago
        > I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. No, we're talking about aviation, and the point is this. Both have a large percentage of ex-military pilots in civil aviation. The military is hierarchical, same as Asian culture in general. Both SK and likely Pakistan would fire a contract US CFI for busting a pilot on a sim ride, and then have a local massage the results into a pass.
        skissane 6y ago
        If you worded your point as "countries with hierarchical cultures and whose aviation industry is dominated by ex-military pilots have this problem" I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent. It isn't making that point, it is making it in combination with the fallacious assumption there is such a thing as an "Asian culture" (as opposed to "Asian cultures") Is it only Asian countries which have hierarchical cultures and aviation industries dominated by ex-military? Might some countries in other continents have the same situation? Conversely, might some Asian countries lack that situation?

rob74 6y ago

I think you misunderstand the situation. From the point of view of the fake pilots, everything was just fine: they were doing a great job, the missing or dubious licenses were just a small formality, and the authorities couldn't force them to do anything...

t0mas88 6y ago

That training would probably fail. I've seen a few licensed pilots with a real license from a country that isn't ICAO standard (and I'm going to guess Pakistan is like that as well) sit in flight training. They didn't do very well, lots of bad habits, not a very enthusiastic attitude towards a training they think they don't need.

redis_mlc 6y ago
> Couldn't these companies just sponsor the pilots to complete their pilot training program? Well, that training costs close to $100,000, takes up to 2 years, the fake pilots would have to pass several written, practical and medical tests. > They didn't do very well In Asian culture, staff only get promoted (one-way up) over time. So the concept of failing one of your pilots is a hard sell for local examiners - it would be scandalous behavior to flunk their sim ride. S. Korea rotates in US CFIs until they find compliant ones that will endorse, otherwise they're sent back to the US. Or they just use locals to rubber-stamp logbooks. One of the few recent US airline accidents was the SFO Asiana crash, which is the poster child for "not doing very well." (although why SFO turns off their ILS all the time is bizarre.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214
- wishiwasoutside 6y ago
  "in Asian culture" why are you using Korean anecdotes to explain a Pakistani problem?
  - theduder99 6y ago
    hackernews
  - 1024core 6y ago
    Last I checked, Pakistan was in Asia....?
    - skissane 6y ago
      I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. Different languages, different religions, different traditions, different histories, etc. So claiming they both share "Asian culture" is rather dubious since it isn't very clear what is this "Asian culture" which they allegedly both share. Some Asian countries do have some common cultural heritage. Japan and Korea were both heavily influenced by Chinese culture, for example. But, Pakistan and Korea, what common cultural heritage do they have?
      - redis_mlc 6y ago
        > I think the point is, that Pakistan and Korea are culturally very different. No, we're talking about aviation, and the point is this. Both have a large percentage of ex-military pilots in civil aviation. The military is hierarchical, same as Asian culture in general. Both SK and likely Pakistan would fire a contract US CFI for busting a pilot on a sim ride, and then have a local massage the results into a pass.
        skissane 6y ago
        If you worded your point as "countries with hierarchical cultures and whose aviation industry is dominated by ex-military pilots have this problem" I don't think people would disagree with it to anywhere near the same extent. It isn't making that point, it is making it in combination with the fallacious assumption there is such a thing as an "Asian culture" (as opposed to "Asian cultures") Is it only Asian countries which have hierarchical cultures and aviation industries dominated by ex-military? Might some countries in other continents have the same situation? Conversely, might some Asian countries lack that situation?