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Every time Microsoft or Apple majorly screws something up, people say this. It still hasn't happened yet. However, I think Apple has been a far greater threat

Every time Microsoft or Apple majorly screws something up, people say this. It still hasn't happened yet. However, I think Apple has been a far greater threat to Linux adoption than Microsoft. Why? Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. There is real value in proprietary commercial end-user application software. Most companies who make such software couldn't care less about supporting Linux. So if you want to use Linux, you have to use F/OSS alternatives and continue to try convincing everyone that somehow they're better than the commercial options... even when the rest of the world has agreed that they're really not. The whole incentive structure around F/OSS development really doesn't work for software where the profit motive is in the product itself... Not some nebulous "support contract" that you don't actually need. (Which is a far bigger issue for end-user applications.)

ryandvm 6y ago
> Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. The hardware used to be pretty nice, but honestly I'm still having trouble forgiving them for getting rid of the physical ESC key and turning volume control into a two-step routine on the TouchBar. Honestly if I'm doing server-side development, I much prefer using my ThinkPad (Ubuntu) over my MacBook. About the only thing I miss is the far superior touchpad on the Macbook. That's it.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  I was with you until they released the newest MBP. Now my beloved ESC is back. I already do all my development in a Vagrant instance so I've never been bothered by the tooling. In all other regards I prefer MacOS as a desktop environment to the currently available Linux choices.
- mbreese 6y ago
  >> Because it gives techies the nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. > The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. It doesn't have to be the best nix environment. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a good one. It just has to be "good-enough". For this, they still have an advantage over Windows. And compared with Linux, they still have the advantage that by-and-large, things "just work". I have never personally been able to say that about a Linux desktop I've had. There is always one more thing to tweak, one more knob to turn, etc... I'm with you on the ESC key and touch bar though... which they thankfully fixed the missing ESC key.
  - meddlepal 6y ago
    Exactly what advantage does macOS shitty Unix environment have over Windows 10 w/ WSL2?
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      It's not running in a virtual machine.
      - meddlepal 6y ago
        Hardly an advantage with all the other negatives.
    - olyjohn 6y ago
      Everything WSL2 does has already been do-able with Windows for at least 10 years. It’s a VM with some file system sharing. You might as well just ask what advantage does MacOS have over Windows. WSL hasn’t changed anything really.
  - apetresc 6y ago
    They _had_ the advantage over Windows. WSL2 is so well-integrated as of the latest major release that I think this advantage has now flipped.
- ArgyleSound 6y ago
  > I'm still having trouble forgiving them for getting rid of the physical ESC key and turning volume control into a two-step routine on the TouchBar To be fair it's always been a one-step routine on the touchbar (touch and drag the icon) and they brought back the escape key.
  - mmcconnell1618 6y ago
    Touch and drag is easy to jump the volume up/down variable amounts but really sucks compared to a single key press for "just a little louder" or "just a little quieter." There is something satisfying in the discrete steps of volume notches. On the other hand, my speakers have a physical volume dial that provides feedback via friction on movement so I like that better than touchbar or physical up/down buttons.
    - ArgyleSound 6y ago
      So there’s actually two types of touch and drag you can do. One is holding until the slider appears and then dragging, the other is flicking the icons left and right which causes single step increments. Discoverability certainly sucks for that second one.
- rescbr 6y ago
  > The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. Well, OS X is Unix, but GNU is not Unix.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Correction: macOS is UNIX®
- Vomzor 6y ago
  Tap the volume icon and swipe left or right without letting go to do it one fell swoop.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. That's what MacPorts is for ;)
- selsta 6y ago
  > Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Can be easily fixed by installing homebrew. Also you claim it is a shitty Unix experience while complaining about BSD flavoured tools. > Funny Docker quirks. How is that Unix related? BSD has similar issues. Maybe you should have written the GNU/Linux experience is pretty shitty on macOS but no one claimed otherwise.
- N1H1L 6y ago
  > The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. Very, very true. And Homebrew is actively becoming worse now. A few years back, Homebrew was great - now using it feels like using some weird underground software stack that exists only because Apple hasn't come around to nixing it yet.
- jki275 6y ago
  Package management == Homebrew. No issues there. Not a fan of the touchbar of course. Otherwise everything else I need is usable on a Mac.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  UNIX experience on Mac is as UNIX as it gets, given that it is certified as a proper UNIX. Linux is its own thing and trying to mix UNIX with Linux is always going to lead to disappointment.
wtetzner 6y ago
> However, I think Apple has been a far greater threat to Linux adoption than Microsoft. Why? Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. With WSL, you basically get an actual Linux userland (with WSL2, I think you get an actual Linux kernel too), not just a Unix that's like Linux but different enough to be annoying. But I'm not sure that will be enough to convince people to move to Windows.
pjmlp 6y ago
If Microsoft had been more serious regarding POSIX personality, Linux would never had taken off. Most devs only want some kind of CLI and POSIX like capabilities.
- anthk 6y ago
  You forgot X11 and Motif. Without that Windows would be useless back in the day.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Not really, because there were plenty of Win32 X Servers. Back in the day I was using Hummingbird.
    - anthk 6y ago
      You forgot about porting and compiling software which depended on X11 and Motif. Linux won because of that.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        What for? That is what having something like Hummingbird took care of. I used to admin UNIX and develop for it from Windows NT/2000 workstations. Also the FOSS version of Motif only appeared when Motif wasn't that much relevant and most enterprise shops were migrating to CORBA and Web as integration points.
        anthk 6y ago
        No, I mean when Motif + Slackware were an alternative to SGI machines in a brief time. Those were supported by big multimedia companies.
- chx 6y ago
  > Most devs only want some kind of CLI and POSIX like capabilities. which is why WSL is so great...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
N1H1L 6y ago
If Microsoft Office comes on Linux, I am switching. And yes, I have used LibreOffice, it simply isn't that good.

ryandvm 6y ago

> Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. The hardware used to be pretty nice, but honestly I'm still having trouble forgiving them for getting rid of the physical ESC key and turning volume control into a two-step routine on the TouchBar. Honestly if I'm doing server-side development, I much prefer using my ThinkPad (Ubuntu) over my MacBook. About the only thing I miss is the far superior touchpad on the Macbook. That's it.

rootusrootus 6y ago
I was with you until they released the newest MBP. Now my beloved ESC is back. I already do all my development in a Vagrant instance so I've never been bothered by the tooling. In all other regards I prefer MacOS as a desktop environment to the currently available Linux choices.
mbreese 6y ago
>> Because it gives techies the nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. > The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. It doesn't have to be the best nix environment. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a good one. It just has to be "good-enough". For this, they still have an advantage over Windows. And compared with Linux, they still have the advantage that by-and-large, things "just work". I have never personally been able to say that about a Linux desktop I've had. There is always one more thing to tweak, one more knob to turn, etc... I'm with you on the ESC key and touch bar though... which they thankfully fixed the missing ESC key.
- meddlepal 6y ago
  Exactly what advantage does macOS shitty Unix environment have over Windows 10 w/ WSL2?
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    It's not running in a virtual machine.
    - meddlepal 6y ago
      Hardly an advantage with all the other negatives.
  - olyjohn 6y ago
    Everything WSL2 does has already been do-able with Windows for at least 10 years. It’s a VM with some file system sharing. You might as well just ask what advantage does MacOS have over Windows. WSL hasn’t changed anything really.
- apetresc 6y ago
  They _had_ the advantage over Windows. WSL2 is so well-integrated as of the latest major release that I think this advantage has now flipped.
ArgyleSound 6y ago
> I'm still having trouble forgiving them for getting rid of the physical ESC key and turning volume control into a two-step routine on the TouchBar To be fair it's always been a one-step routine on the touchbar (touch and drag the icon) and they brought back the escape key.
- mmcconnell1618 6y ago
  Touch and drag is easy to jump the volume up/down variable amounts but really sucks compared to a single key press for "just a little louder" or "just a little quieter." There is something satisfying in the discrete steps of volume notches. On the other hand, my speakers have a physical volume dial that provides feedback via friction on movement so I like that better than touchbar or physical up/down buttons.
  - ArgyleSound 6y ago
    So there’s actually two types of touch and drag you can do. One is holding until the slider appears and then dragging, the other is flicking the icons left and right which causes single step increments. Discoverability certainly sucks for that second one.
rescbr 6y ago
> The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. Well, OS X is Unix, but GNU is not Unix.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Correction: macOS is UNIX®
Vomzor 6y ago
Tap the volume icon and swipe left or right without letting go to do it one fell swoop.
saagarjha 6y ago
> Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. That's what MacPorts is for ;)
selsta 6y ago
> Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Can be easily fixed by installing homebrew. Also you claim it is a shitty Unix experience while complaining about BSD flavoured tools. > Funny Docker quirks. How is that Unix related? BSD has similar issues. Maybe you should have written the GNU/Linux experience is pretty shitty on macOS but no one claimed otherwise.
N1H1L 6y ago
> The UNIX experience on the Mac is pretty shitty. Ancient versions of all the tooling. Command-line utils have that weird BSD well-water flavor. No package management. Funny Docker quirks. Very, very true. And Homebrew is actively becoming worse now. A few years back, Homebrew was great - now using it feels like using some weird underground software stack that exists only because Apple hasn't come around to nixing it yet.
jki275 6y ago
Package management == Homebrew. No issues there. Not a fan of the touchbar of course. Otherwise everything else I need is usable on a Mac.
pjmlp 6y ago
UNIX experience on Mac is as UNIX as it gets, given that it is certified as a proper UNIX. Linux is its own thing and trying to mix UNIX with Linux is always going to lead to disappointment.

wtetzner 6y ago

> However, I think Apple has been a far greater threat to Linux adoption than Microsoft. Why? Because it gives techies the *nix environment they want, with the software and hardware support no one will give them on Linux. With WSL, you basically get an actual Linux userland (with WSL2, I think you get an actual Linux kernel too), not just a Unix that's like Linux but different enough to be annoying. But I'm not sure that will be enough to convince people to move to Windows.

pjmlp 6y ago

If Microsoft had been more serious regarding POSIX personality, Linux would never had taken off. Most devs only want some kind of CLI and POSIX like capabilities.

anthk 6y ago
You forgot X11 and Motif. Without that Windows would be useless back in the day.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Not really, because there were plenty of Win32 X Servers. Back in the day I was using Hummingbird.
  - anthk 6y ago
    You forgot about porting and compiling software which depended on X11 and Motif. Linux won because of that.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      What for? That is what having something like Hummingbird took care of. I used to admin UNIX and develop for it from Windows NT/2000 workstations. Also the FOSS version of Motif only appeared when Motif wasn't that much relevant and most enterprise shops were migrating to CORBA and Web as integration points.
      - anthk 6y ago
        No, I mean when Motif + Slackware were an alternative to SGI machines in a brief time. Those were supported by big multimedia companies.
chx 6y ago
> Most devs only want some kind of CLI and POSIX like capabilities. which is why WSL is so great...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

N1H1L 6y ago

If Microsoft Office comes on Linux, I am switching. And yes, I have used LibreOffice, it simply isn't that good.