5 ms·

The pilot was reportedly well seasoned. I have my doubts about the quality of the report given the incredible mishandling of the situation. "Imran Narejo, an

The pilot was reportedly well seasoned. I have my doubts about the quality of the report given the incredible mishandling of the situation. "Imran Narejo, an official of the PIA Pilots Association, said Gul was a seasoned pilot with 18,000 hours of experience including over 4,000 hours in the A320." https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/05/9616e4079ce1-at-least-92-killed-in-plane-crash-in-pakistans-karachi.html https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/05/9616e4079ce1-at-l...

ominous_prime 6y ago
The report corroborates the witness, video, ADS-B, and ATC recordings we had hours after the crash. It adds more details we couldn’t determine at that time, but otherwise it looks to be quite accurate
m3h 6y ago
In Pakistan, there is a culture of becoming overconfident and ignorant of the rules in the airline industry as the pilots age. This was also noted by the Aviation minister when he presented the PIA crash report to the assembly. It should be noted that two of the previous large crashes involving an Airblue and a Bhoja airplane were both concluded to be pilot error with the report pointing to overconfidence and negative attitude in cockpit, in addition to lack of regards for regulations for air safety and lack of training as well.
- sidewndr46 6y ago
  While I have no doubt this is true of Pakistan, it is true of many people who gain experience in a culture regardless of their age. A while back some US Air Force pilots landed a B-1 bomber on Diego Garcia. The entire flight and the landing was flawless, other than the part where they landed with the gear in the retracted position. The report on the incidents finding was they simply went right past the item on the checklist like it never happened.
- linuxftw 6y ago
  This is indicative of a systemic culture of rule breaking. This is common in all government run systems. "The system is too arduous, doesn't reflect the 'real world.' We know better than the system, we know what really matters." Eventually you have a bunch of John Waynes playing fast and loose with the rules, eventually they become emboldened, and since the government is famously bad at policing itself, these attitudes are pervasive. This happens at the highest levels, even. Consider Hillary Clinton and the communication of classified (and information that should have been considered classified regardless of markings) via her primary email server. It's a pervasive culture of rule breaking.
  - m3h 6y ago
    >This is common in all government run systems. I do not believe all government systems result in systemic rule breaking but only those do that do not provide an reasonable way to get things done within the rules/regulatory framework.
  - woodandsteel 6y ago
    >This is common in all government run systems No, that is not at all true. There are lots of government run systems, like the health care systems in most developed countries, that are just fine. The problem with Pakistan is it has a highly corrupt culture in general and in government in particular. That is no doubt why so many of the airline pilots were able to get hired without a legal licence. Your general claim and the fact that you bring up Hillary Clinton as an example makes me think that you believe in the crackpot libertarian view that modern societies would be vastly better if we basically got rid of the government except for a few, narrow areas.
    - linuxftw 6y ago
      > crackpot libertarian view that modern societies Which group, government or 'crackpot libertarians', were responsible for more deaths in the last century? I'll wait. I'm sure if you ask those in Iraq, they'd vastly prefer the US Government was more libertarian (or any NATO government, really). I understand wanting to trade blood for convenience, as long as it's not your blood.
- jessermeyer 6y ago
  Ignorant of ... lowering the landing gears to land? It's just astonishing.
  - briandear 6y ago
    Gear up landings are one of the most common insurance claims for aircraft. It’s more common than you might think, even with experienced pilots.
    - chooseaname 6y ago
      Is there any kind of indicator in the cockpit to remind the pilot? A light? A voice (like the stall voice), that says, "Hey doofus, you're descending and close to landing, so LOWER THE GEAR!"
      - colejohnson66 6y ago
        I’m not a pilot, but I think there’s a “too low” warning
        bdamm 6y ago
        Most airplanes have a "too slow" warning as well, e.g. a speed at which the gear ought to be down because there isn't any other reason to be going so slow except to be landing. The speed also factors into gear retraction, e.g. you are not going fast enough to fly, so gear retraction will not be actuated even if commanded.
      - t0mas88 6y ago
        There is. Some planes beep, others literally play a warning "too low, gear, too low, gear" in the cockpit and headsets. But gear up landings don't happen in a normal stable approach in nice weather. Gear up landings happen when something else is going on taking all the pilots' attention. Like in this incident they were too high, too fast and descending too quickly. That causes a lot of other warnings and distractions, so they completely didn't hear the gear warning.
- angch 6y ago
  Normalization of Deviance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance See also: https://danluu.com/wat/ https://danluu.com/wat/
duskwuff 6y ago
> The pilot was reportedly well seasoned. In routine operations of the plane under normal conditions. If they hadn't gone through proper training, they might lack knowledge of how to respond to abnormal situations.

ominous_prime 6y ago

The report corroborates the witness, video, ADS-B, and ATC recordings we had hours after the crash. It adds more details we couldn’t determine at that time, but otherwise it looks to be quite accurate

m3h 6y ago

In Pakistan, there is a culture of becoming overconfident and ignorant of the rules in the airline industry as the pilots age. This was also noted by the Aviation minister when he presented the PIA crash report to the assembly. It should be noted that two of the previous large crashes involving an Airblue and a Bhoja airplane were both concluded to be pilot error with the report pointing to overconfidence and negative attitude in cockpit, in addition to lack of regards for regulations for air safety and lack of training as well.

sidewndr46 6y ago
While I have no doubt this is true of Pakistan, it is true of many people who gain experience in a culture regardless of their age. A while back some US Air Force pilots landed a B-1 bomber on Diego Garcia. The entire flight and the landing was flawless, other than the part where they landed with the gear in the retracted position. The report on the incidents finding was they simply went right past the item on the checklist like it never happened.
linuxftw 6y ago
This is indicative of a systemic culture of rule breaking. This is common in all government run systems. "The system is too arduous, doesn't reflect the 'real world.' We know better than the system, we know what really matters." Eventually you have a bunch of John Waynes playing fast and loose with the rules, eventually they become emboldened, and since the government is famously bad at policing itself, these attitudes are pervasive. This happens at the highest levels, even. Consider Hillary Clinton and the communication of classified (and information that should have been considered classified regardless of markings) via her primary email server. It's a pervasive culture of rule breaking.
- m3h 6y ago
  >This is common in all government run systems. I do not believe all government systems result in systemic rule breaking but only those do that do not provide an reasonable way to get things done within the rules/regulatory framework.
- woodandsteel 6y ago
  >This is common in all government run systems No, that is not at all true. There are lots of government run systems, like the health care systems in most developed countries, that are just fine. The problem with Pakistan is it has a highly corrupt culture in general and in government in particular. That is no doubt why so many of the airline pilots were able to get hired without a legal licence. Your general claim and the fact that you bring up Hillary Clinton as an example makes me think that you believe in the crackpot libertarian view that modern societies would be vastly better if we basically got rid of the government except for a few, narrow areas.
  - linuxftw 6y ago
    > crackpot libertarian view that modern societies Which group, government or 'crackpot libertarians', were responsible for more deaths in the last century? I'll wait. I'm sure if you ask those in Iraq, they'd vastly prefer the US Government was more libertarian (or any NATO government, really). I understand wanting to trade blood for convenience, as long as it's not your blood.
jessermeyer 6y ago
Ignorant of ... lowering the landing gears to land? It's just astonishing.
- briandear 6y ago
  Gear up landings are one of the most common insurance claims for aircraft. It’s more common than you might think, even with experienced pilots.
  - chooseaname 6y ago
    Is there any kind of indicator in the cockpit to remind the pilot? A light? A voice (like the stall voice), that says, "Hey doofus, you're descending and close to landing, so LOWER THE GEAR!"
    - colejohnson66 6y ago
      I’m not a pilot, but I think there’s a “too low” warning
      - bdamm 6y ago
        Most airplanes have a "too slow" warning as well, e.g. a speed at which the gear ought to be down because there isn't any other reason to be going so slow except to be landing. The speed also factors into gear retraction, e.g. you are not going fast enough to fly, so gear retraction will not be actuated even if commanded.
    - t0mas88 6y ago
      There is. Some planes beep, others literally play a warning "too low, gear, too low, gear" in the cockpit and headsets. But gear up landings don't happen in a normal stable approach in nice weather. Gear up landings happen when something else is going on taking all the pilots' attention. Like in this incident they were too high, too fast and descending too quickly. That causes a lot of other warnings and distractions, so they completely didn't hear the gear warning.
angch 6y ago
Normalization of Deviance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalization_of_deviance See also: https://danluu.com/wat/ https://danluu.com/wat/

duskwuff 6y ago

> The pilot was reportedly well seasoned. In routine operations of the plane under normal conditions. If they hadn't gone through proper training, they might lack knowledge of how to respond to abnormal situations.