4 ms·

Because those are your descriptions, which not everyone agrees with, especially since you're lumping huge groups of people together. Either way, talking about

Because those are your descriptions, which not everyone agrees with, especially since you're lumping huge groups of people together. Either way, talking about a group should not get you fired, period.

ben_w 6y ago
People disagree that the American police are routinely armed? That’s the first I’ve heard. Does anyone actually disagree that the police have a presumption of justification for lethal force? Because literally every time I’ve seen this conversation, for longer than I’ve been online, the argument from those opposed to the protesters of the moment and in favour of the police response has been that they should have that presumption not if they have that presumption. Does anyone disagree that the protestors face the prospect of injury or loss of life? Despite, to use one of far too many salient examples from this year alone, the video of a pensioner being knocked to the ground by one cop and bleeding from the head as the rest just walked around him without even attempting to offer first aid? As for what ought to be acceptable grounds for firing… how many states are “at-will” or whatever the correct term is? In those places, anything goes.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
  You seem to have a distorted view of America. You should probably live here before you pass judgement. Listening to the echo chamber here and the mainstream news that comes out of America is not the full picture.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    I’ve had four one month long trips to the USA, three east coast, one west. I’ve walked from San Jose train station to Cupertino, from South Ferry Station to Broadway, seen the earthworks demolishing the mountains around Salt Lake City, and visited houses in Boston and Providence that are utterly alien to what I’m used to as a European. One of the places I visited was UC Davis. The incident there has its own Wikipedia page. In Newark, I got to see things which don’t make it into international media, like an African-American outdoor market with banners pleading the readers to treat the humans with, at a minimum, the same respect as is shown for these people’s cultural contributions to the USA. All of this is because my ex is actually an American citizen. Heck, because of her, I’ve met Jill Stein twice. Now, can you actually provide me with a reason to change my mind?
    - s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
      Change your mind of what? That police aren't all evil people? I live in a small town of 6,000 people with a 1/3rd black, hispanic, and white population and everything is fine here. It's only poorly run Democratic cities with these policing problems, because of the police unions and lack of funding/leadership. Despite your travels, your view of America is incomplete.
      - ben_w 6y ago
        Can you change my belief that the police have weapons and armour, or a de-facto presumption of being justified even when they use even lethal force, or that even “bad apples” tend to keep their jobs? Can you change my belief that the protesters are at risk of losing their limbs, eyesight, liberty, or lives? These are not a question of “are all cops bad?”, it is a question of “is this even a remotely equal situation?”
        s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
        The police do have weapons and armor, that's not disputed nor inherently bad. Citizens can also have weapons and armor for self-defense per our Second Amendment. Police here need those tools because there are cartels like MS-13 and other dangerous criminals they have to face on a daily basis. Bad cops with lots of complaints are protected by police unions, that's the main problem. Get rid of those and you'll be able to fire the bad apples. Protesters may get hurt, many of them bring it on themselves by not dispersing after a few bad apples stir things up by throwing rocks/bottles of cement/etc. We need to call out the people disrupting the protests, not the cops trying to protect the protesters from the rioters.
        ben_w 6y ago
        That’s better :) However... > Protesters may get hurt, many of them bring it on themselves by not dispersing after a few bad apples stir things up by throwing rocks/bottles of cement/etc. I recommend you avoid this type of reasoning. After all, I’m explicitly not saying “Police may get hurt, many of them bring it on themselves by not disciplining a few bad apples who stir things up by sitting on someone’s neck until they die“, which would be an equivalent statement. I think you and I would agree about the current police unions, although I do think there are at least two other possible solutions than getting rid of police unions entirely. I definitely don’t agree that police need to be armed, because although I’m no longer living in the UK, I grew up there — UK cops are not only not routinely armed, their unions are mostly opposed to becoming armed.

ben_w 6y ago

People disagree that the American police are routinely armed? That’s the first I’ve heard. Does anyone actually disagree that the police have a presumption of justification for lethal force? Because literally every time I’ve seen this conversation, for longer than I’ve been online, the argument from those opposed to the protesters of the moment and in favour of the police response has been that they should have that presumption not if they have that presumption. Does anyone disagree that the protestors face the prospect of injury or loss of life? Despite, to use one of far too many salient examples from this year alone, the video of a pensioner being knocked to the ground by one cop and bleeding from the head as the rest just walked around him without even attempting to offer first aid? As for what ought to be acceptable grounds for firing… how many states are “at-will” or whatever the correct term is? In those places, anything goes.

s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
You seem to have a distorted view of America. You should probably live here before you pass judgement. Listening to the echo chamber here and the mainstream news that comes out of America is not the full picture.
- ben_w 6y ago
  I’ve had four one month long trips to the USA, three east coast, one west. I’ve walked from San Jose train station to Cupertino, from South Ferry Station to Broadway, seen the earthworks demolishing the mountains around Salt Lake City, and visited houses in Boston and Providence that are utterly alien to what I’m used to as a European. One of the places I visited was UC Davis. The incident there has its own Wikipedia page. In Newark, I got to see things which don’t make it into international media, like an African-American outdoor market with banners pleading the readers to treat the humans with, at a minimum, the same respect as is shown for these people’s cultural contributions to the USA. All of this is because my ex is actually an American citizen. Heck, because of her, I’ve met Jill Stein twice. Now, can you actually provide me with a reason to change my mind?
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
    Change your mind of what? That police aren't all evil people? I live in a small town of 6,000 people with a 1/3rd black, hispanic, and white population and everything is fine here. It's only poorly run Democratic cities with these policing problems, because of the police unions and lack of funding/leadership. Despite your travels, your view of America is incomplete.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Can you change my belief that the police have weapons and armour, or a de-facto presumption of being justified even when they use even lethal force, or that even “bad apples” tend to keep their jobs? Can you change my belief that the protesters are at risk of losing their limbs, eyesight, liberty, or lives? These are not a question of “are all cops bad?”, it is a question of “is this even a remotely equal situation?”
      - s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
        The police do have weapons and armor, that's not disputed nor inherently bad. Citizens can also have weapons and armor for self-defense per our Second Amendment. Police here need those tools because there are cartels like MS-13 and other dangerous criminals they have to face on a daily basis. Bad cops with lots of complaints are protected by police unions, that's the main problem. Get rid of those and you'll be able to fire the bad apples. Protesters may get hurt, many of them bring it on themselves by not dispersing after a few bad apples stir things up by throwing rocks/bottles of cement/etc. We need to call out the people disrupting the protests, not the cops trying to protect the protesters from the rioters.
        ben_w 6y ago
        That’s better :) However... > Protesters may get hurt, many of them bring it on themselves by not dispersing after a few bad apples stir things up by throwing rocks/bottles of cement/etc. I recommend you avoid this type of reasoning. After all, I’m explicitly not saying “Police may get hurt, many of them bring it on themselves by not disciplining a few bad apples who stir things up by sitting on someone’s neck until they die“, which would be an equivalent statement. I think you and I would agree about the current police unions, although I do think there are at least two other possible solutions than getting rid of police unions entirely. I definitely don’t agree that police need to be armed, because although I’m no longer living in the UK, I grew up there — UK cops are not only not routinely armed, their unions are mostly opposed to becoming armed.