4 ms·

Well USA and UK is basically the same culture when you look from outside anglosphere. Traditional western fantasy is all about Good vs Evil and Tolkien was tec

by ajuc 6y ago

Well USA and UK is basically the same culture when you look from outside anglosphere. Traditional western fantasy is all about Good vs Evil and Tolkien was technically British as well. Compare that to the Witcher book series where the evil slavery empire fights the evil racist kingdoms who are racist towards elves (who have their own racist empire on another plane where they genocided humans). And the only good guy is a hired mutant hunter who strives to be neutral (and through the books learns that he can't).

the_af 6y ago
Yes, maybe I was unclear: it's both that Moorcock is British and anti-Tolkien (seriously: read his essay "Epic Pooh" [1] about Tolkien: Moorcock hates his guts). Moorcock's writings are pretty much a subversion of the usual Evil vs Good tropes, the Hero's Journey, etc. I agree with you Tolkien is indeed a good exponent of the Good vs Evil mentality. ---- [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20161013045857/http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953 https://web.archive.org/web/20161013045857/http://www.revolu...
- ajuc 6y ago
  I've read his Runestaff cycle and it felt pretty Good vs Evil to me. Maybe because I was like 13 then so I mostly read for cool fights etc :) I've also read a few books about Elric and they felt a lot like Conan which I guess is another example of non Good-vs-Evil fantasy in English, so that's 2.
  - the_af 6y ago
    Elric is pretty much the opposite of Good-vs-Evil. Or rather, it's Gray-vs-Trying-To-Be-Good-But-Destroying-Everything-You-Hold-Dear ;) In a pretty good subversion of the hero's journey, Elric starts a powerful ruler and wizard (though a sickly, drug-addicted one), and doesn't set off on adventures to gain power. And his patron gods are the gods of Chaos, not the gods of Law. Elric is an anti-hero in contrast to Tolkien's more clear-cut heroes. Even the game Dungeons & Dragons explores the implications of having interesting True Neutral or morally gray characters, or situations where being classically "good" is not possible or desirable.
    - ajuc 6y ago
      I've read a few books from middle of the cycle (because that's what my countryside library had in 90s). So it's possible I missed the point. But I remember not being impressed. As for D&D the alignment mechanic feels very artificial and is often houseruled out altogether here. Fun fact - in Poland the most popular ttrpg was (and probably still is) Warhammer FRPG, not D&D. And it's considerably more shades of gray and pessimistic than D&D :) D&D was often considered backward and "for kids" compared to the "real" RPGs, it changes a little with 5e because of Critical Role and all the hype. But that success of Warhammer was mostly caused by being the first AAA quality RPG to be published in Poland and making a big marketing campaign in 90s, so that's not an argument for or against the cultural differences.
      - the_af 6y ago
        Well, Warhammer's Chaos gods are also inspired by Moorcock ;) Warhammer is definitely more shades of gray than D&D, but I think D&D has some of that too, especially with its less common (and less heroic) settings such as Planescape, Dark Sun, etc. PS: in case you're a Pole, how did you like Netflix's Witcher? Years ago I read the English translation of The Last Wish and it felt very fresh to me -- I really liked that the monsters are non-standard, it resembled Jack Vance's fiction in that way -- but stopped short of the novels, because what I've been told about them didn't impress me. I really, really liked the short stories though.
        ajuc 6y ago
        I liked it, but it's not as good as I imagined it would be. They skipped a lot of the nuances and philosophy and just made Geralt grunt and curse, especially the talking in the short story with elves and the goat-man was great and they cut it beyond recognition. Sapkowski's main strength is dialogs so that was sad. But it's still much better than Polish movie about Witcher from 2000. It was the biggest disappointment of my youth :)
        watwut 6y ago
        Geralt come across as asshole, but in the books he is not. He has banter with friend in the books, in the series he is just dick. In the books witchers are said to not have emotions, but he has them right and left. Other then that, it matches.

by ajuc 6y ago

the_af 6y ago

Yes, maybe I was unclear: it's both that Moorcock is British and anti-Tolkien (seriously: read his essay "Epic Pooh" [1] about Tolkien: Moorcock hates his guts). Moorcock's writings are pretty much a subversion of the usual Evil vs Good tropes, the Hero's Journey, etc. I agree with you Tolkien is indeed a good exponent of the Good vs Evil mentality. ---- [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20161013045857/http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953 https://web.archive.org/web/20161013045857/http://www.revolu...

ajuc 6y ago
I've read his Runestaff cycle and it felt pretty Good vs Evil to me. Maybe because I was like 13 then so I mostly read for cool fights etc :) I've also read a few books about Elric and they felt a lot like Conan which I guess is another example of non Good-vs-Evil fantasy in English, so that's 2.
- the_af 6y ago
  Elric is pretty much the opposite of Good-vs-Evil. Or rather, it's Gray-vs-Trying-To-Be-Good-But-Destroying-Everything-You-Hold-Dear ;) In a pretty good subversion of the hero's journey, Elric starts a powerful ruler and wizard (though a sickly, drug-addicted one), and doesn't set off on adventures to gain power. And his patron gods are the gods of Chaos, not the gods of Law. Elric is an anti-hero in contrast to Tolkien's more clear-cut heroes. Even the game Dungeons & Dragons explores the implications of having interesting True Neutral or morally gray characters, or situations where being classically "good" is not possible or desirable.
  - ajuc 6y ago
    I've read a few books from middle of the cycle (because that's what my countryside library had in 90s). So it's possible I missed the point. But I remember not being impressed. As for D&D the alignment mechanic feels very artificial and is often houseruled out altogether here. Fun fact - in Poland the most popular ttrpg was (and probably still is) Warhammer FRPG, not D&D. And it's considerably more shades of gray and pessimistic than D&D :) D&D was often considered backward and "for kids" compared to the "real" RPGs, it changes a little with 5e because of Critical Role and all the hype. But that success of Warhammer was mostly caused by being the first AAA quality RPG to be published in Poland and making a big marketing campaign in 90s, so that's not an argument for or against the cultural differences.
    - the_af 6y ago
      Well, Warhammer's Chaos gods are also inspired by Moorcock ;) Warhammer is definitely more shades of gray than D&D, but I think D&D has some of that too, especially with its less common (and less heroic) settings such as Planescape, Dark Sun, etc. PS: in case you're a Pole, how did you like Netflix's Witcher? Years ago I read the English translation of The Last Wish and it felt very fresh to me -- I really liked that the monsters are non-standard, it resembled Jack Vance's fiction in that way -- but stopped short of the novels, because what I've been told about them didn't impress me. I really, really liked the short stories though.
      - ajuc 6y ago
        I liked it, but it's not as good as I imagined it would be. They skipped a lot of the nuances and philosophy and just made Geralt grunt and curse, especially the talking in the short story with elves and the goat-man was great and they cut it beyond recognition. Sapkowski's main strength is dialogs so that was sad. But it's still much better than Polish movie about Witcher from 2000. It was the biggest disappointment of my youth :)
      - watwut 6y ago
        Geralt come across as asshole, but in the books he is not. He has banter with friend in the books, in the series he is just dick. In the books witchers are said to not have emotions, but he has them right and left. Other then that, it matches.