4 ms·

> will not support booting other OS ... "without voiding the warranty", anyway. Where there's a will, there's a way.

draw_down 6y ago
You’re also not allowed to run macOS on non-Apple hardware. Hope nobody out there is doing that!
nextos 6y ago
It's going to be hard to have good Linux support. Even current Intel MacBooks are full of glitches and things that don't work due to custom T2 chips. In the future, I expect this to be more of a problem as Apple continues pushing custom chips. This makes a lot of sense for them as they can develop significant advantages by controlling their architecture, like e.g. Commodore did with Amiga. In contrast, early Intel MacBooks were fantastically open. For example, the MacBook 2,1 is one of the few machines to be able to run Libreboot. The MacBook Air Late 2012 was run by many people as a daily driver, including Linus, as it was a pure Intel machine. Silent and simple, everything was supported.
ansible 6y ago
I expect that running alternate OSs on an ARM Mac to be about as easy as they are on an iOS device. Which is to say... not easy. Apple has been working to close holes in the secure boot for many years. The question of course is... why bother? I kind of get it as far as the laptops go, because of the hardware design. Though I think that gap has closed considerably in recent years and you can get a decent laptop that runs Windows or Linux. Though in the Linux case, support for features like suspend / resume and such tend to be spotty. For desktop hardware, I don't see the value proposition for running an alternate OS.
- eugenekolo 6y ago
  I think 95% of people running an alternate OS on a Mac computer are doing it for dual booting Windows and video games.
- BunsanSpace 6y ago
  Ultimately it's the users device and the user will do what they want with it. Locking bootloaders is just security theatre. if someone wants to run Linux/otherOS on their computer, they should be allowed to do so.
  - acdha 6y ago
    It’s not just security theater: ask how many people will use Linux intentionally versus how many will be compromised by malware which uses the same technique for persistence? You might be able to do something like encrypting the macOS partitions with a key which won’t be given to a non-trusted boot path but that’s a lot of work and new security risk for something which almost nobody will use since most people are buying Macs for the software and very few people have needs which can’t be satisfied by running Linux under the built-in hypervisor.
- teknopaul 6y ago
  Suspend and resume has been stable for 10 years on linux. There is a clear value proposition for taking an old mac and installing Linux. No value for Apple, they want you to landfill the laptop and buy a new one.
  - benologist 6y ago
    They don't want you to landfill it, they want to buy it back for half-market-value so they can resell it or reuse parts and metals. With cheap repairs you'd get your MBP fixed for $300 instead of sell it back to Apple for $300. With upgradability you'd max out ram and storage and get additional years out of a computer that maybe only shipped with 128gb of storage and 8gb of ram because you didn't have a spare $2000 for soldered upgrades on day zero. It all just pushes and guides you back to Apple to return the machine you quasi-leased for a slight discount on the next.
    - valuearb 6y ago
      Quasi-leased? My Macs have always lasted far longer than my Windows PCs, if that’s a lease it’s the lowest cost one ever.
      - benologist 6y ago
        If you're looking at pre-2016 hardware sure, we can look back and see this stuff still ticking along very nicely and setting new expectations on longevity. Anything since is stuck with soldered storage and whatever ram unless you upgrade the entire machine. Anything with a butterfly keyboard is dependent on a free keyboard replacement program that ends soon for the earliest models. OLED degrades over time so there's a TBD lifespan on touch bar screens. The iMacs and Mac Pro might last forever on the hardware side, but if Apple only needs two years to transition to their own hardware they'll have no software support long before the hardware is useless. None of this is going to last like the previous generation.
  - ansible 6y ago
    > Suspend and resume has been stable for 10 years on linux. I should have been more clear. What I meant was that buying a mainstream laptop with Windows pre-installed, and then putting Linux on it. In that case, things like suspend / resume may or may not work. Sure, one of those rare Linux-specific laptops (System 76, Dell, etc.) will see dramatically better hardware support.
xfr 6y ago
It’s already been confirmed that kernel extensions will work on the ARM macs. From there it seems straightforward to get a basic Linux loader going.
- my123 6y ago
  The biggest obstacle for those is a ton of work for drivers. Arm macs also don't use UEFI but iBoot + DeviceTree, however we provide a bridge bootloader as a part of checkra1n (pongoOS) that can be loaded after iBoot, and it boots Linux on an iPhone just fine. :-)

You’re also not allowed to run macOS on non-Apple hardware. Hope nobody out there is doing that!

It's going to be hard to have good Linux support. Even current Intel MacBooks are full of glitches and things that don't work due to custom T2 chips. In the future, I expect this to be more of a problem as Apple continues pushing custom chips. This makes a lot of sense for them as they can develop significant advantages by controlling their architecture, like e.g. Commodore did with Amiga. In contrast, early Intel MacBooks were fantastically open. For example, the MacBook 2,1 is one of the few machines to be able to run Libreboot. The MacBook Air Late 2012 was run by many people as a daily driver, including Linus, as it was a pure Intel machine. Silent and simple, everything was supported.

ansible 6y ago

I expect that running alternate OSs on an ARM Mac to be about as easy as they are on an iOS device. Which is to say... not easy. Apple has been working to close holes in the secure boot for many years. The question of course is... why bother? I kind of get it as far as the laptops go, because of the hardware design. Though I think that gap has closed considerably in recent years and you can get a decent laptop that runs Windows or Linux. Though in the Linux case, support for features like suspend / resume and such tend to be spotty. For desktop hardware, I don't see the value proposition for running an alternate OS.

eugenekolo 6y ago
I think 95% of people running an alternate OS on a Mac computer are doing it for dual booting Windows and video games.
BunsanSpace 6y ago
Ultimately it's the users device and the user will do what they want with it. Locking bootloaders is just security theatre. if someone wants to run Linux/otherOS on their computer, they should be allowed to do so.
- acdha 6y ago
  It’s not just security theater: ask how many people will use Linux intentionally versus how many will be compromised by malware which uses the same technique for persistence? You might be able to do something like encrypting the macOS partitions with a key which won’t be given to a non-trusted boot path but that’s a lot of work and new security risk for something which almost nobody will use since most people are buying Macs for the software and very few people have needs which can’t be satisfied by running Linux under the built-in hypervisor.
teknopaul 6y ago
Suspend and resume has been stable for 10 years on linux. There is a clear value proposition for taking an old mac and installing Linux. No value for Apple, they want you to landfill the laptop and buy a new one.
- benologist 6y ago
  They don't want you to landfill it, they want to buy it back for half-market-value so they can resell it or reuse parts and metals. With cheap repairs you'd get your MBP fixed for $300 instead of sell it back to Apple for $300. With upgradability you'd max out ram and storage and get additional years out of a computer that maybe only shipped with 128gb of storage and 8gb of ram because you didn't have a spare $2000 for soldered upgrades on day zero. It all just pushes and guides you back to Apple to return the machine you quasi-leased for a slight discount on the next.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Quasi-leased? My Macs have always lasted far longer than my Windows PCs, if that’s a lease it’s the lowest cost one ever.
    - benologist 6y ago
      If you're looking at pre-2016 hardware sure, we can look back and see this stuff still ticking along very nicely and setting new expectations on longevity. Anything since is stuck with soldered storage and whatever ram unless you upgrade the entire machine. Anything with a butterfly keyboard is dependent on a free keyboard replacement program that ends soon for the earliest models. OLED degrades over time so there's a TBD lifespan on touch bar screens. The iMacs and Mac Pro might last forever on the hardware side, but if Apple only needs two years to transition to their own hardware they'll have no software support long before the hardware is useless. None of this is going to last like the previous generation.
- ansible 6y ago
  > Suspend and resume has been stable for 10 years on linux. I should have been more clear. What I meant was that buying a mainstream laptop with Windows pre-installed, and then putting Linux on it. In that case, things like suspend / resume may or may not work. Sure, one of those rare Linux-specific laptops (System 76, Dell, etc.) will see dramatically better hardware support.

xfr 6y ago

It’s already been confirmed that kernel extensions will work on the ARM macs. From there it seems straightforward to get a basic Linux loader going.

my123 6y ago
The biggest obstacle for those is a ton of work for drivers. Arm macs also don't use UEFI but iBoot + DeviceTree, however we provide a bridge bootloader as a part of checkra1n (pongoOS) that can be loaded after iBoot, and it boots Linux on an iPhone just fine. :-)