4 ms·
It's also very visible in games. For example in Dungeons and Dragons each character has 2-axis "alignement" - you can be any combination of lawful/neutral/chaot
by ajuc 6y ago
It's also very visible in games. For example in Dungeons and Dragons each character has 2-axis "alignement" - you can be any combination of lawful/neutral/chaotic and good/neutral/evil. And it has gameplay consequences - there are spells that detect if somebody is evil, weapons that can't be used by a good person, etc.
In many western computer RPGs like Bethesda or Bioware games they have big decisions with assigned "good" and "evil" choices, and the game counts how many times you have choosen each and gives you good or bad ending.
And it's even visible at the level of single quests - it's a trope that when you save someone in a game and (s)he offers you a prize you should decline and you'll almost guaranteed to get a better prize.
Compared to that Polish games (for example the Witcher series, but also This War of Mine and to a lesser degree Dying Light and Call of Juarez) have no "good" and "evil" decisions - instead you have decisions where each option is good for some reason and bad for another reason. And often there's a choice that ends bad either way (this is especially the Witcher trademark - there's like 100 different quests where you have to choose between 2 parties that are in conflict, both have reasons for their position, and both hate each other and no matter what you chose someone will suffer).
I find this much more realistic than the American good-vs-evil default.
I think it's mostly caused by recent history where Poland was saved from Nazi occupation by Soviet occupation and both murdered thousands of people - we are very aware culturally that being the enemy of one evil doesn't mean you're good. The whole Witcher franchise is exploration of lesser evil and price of neutrality.
- the_af 6y ago> It's also very visible in games. For example in Dungeons and Dragons each character has 2-axis "alignement" - you can be any combination of lawful/neutral/chaotic and good/neutral/evil. Note that D&D got this from Michael Moorcock [1], who is a British sword and sorcery author, and in whose works being Chaotic or Lawful is much less clear-cut, morally speaking. So I m not sure that D&D is a good example of "American thinking". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Moorcock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Moorcock
- ajuc 6y agoWell USA and UK is basically the same culture when you look from outside anglosphere. Traditional western fantasy is all about Good vs Evil and Tolkien was technically British as well. Compare that to the Witcher book series where the evil slavery empire fights the evil racist kingdoms who are racist towards elves (who have their own racist empire on another plane where they genocided humans). And the only good guy is a hired mutant hunter who strives to be neutral (and through the books learns that he can't).
- the_af 6y agoYes, maybe I was unclear: it's both that Moorcock is British and anti-Tolkien (seriously: read his essay "Epic Pooh" [1] about Tolkien: Moorcock hates his guts). Moorcock's writings are pretty much a subversion of the usual Evil vs Good tropes, the Hero's Journey, etc. I agree with you Tolkien is indeed a good exponent of the Good vs Evil mentality. ---- [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20161013045857/http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953 https://web.archive.org/web/20161013045857/http://www.revolu...
- ajuc 6y agoI've read his Runestaff cycle and it felt pretty Good vs Evil to me. Maybe because I was like 13 then so I mostly read for cool fights etc :) I've also read a few books about Elric and they felt a lot like Conan which I guess is another example of non Good-vs-Evil fantasy in English, so that's 2.
- the_af 6y agoElric is pretty much the opposite of Good-vs-Evil. Or rather, it's Gray-vs-Trying-To-Be-Good-But-Destroying-Everything-You-Hold-Dear ;) In a pretty good subversion of the hero's journey, Elric starts a powerful ruler and wizard (though a sickly, drug-addicted one), and doesn't set off on adventures to gain power. And his patron gods are the gods of Chaos, not the gods of Law. Elric is an anti-hero in contrast to Tolkien's more clear-cut heroes. Even the game Dungeons & Dragons explores the implications of having interesting True Neutral or morally gray characters, or situations where being classically "good" is not possible or desirable.
- watwut 6y ago> and the game counts how many times you have choosen each and gives you good or bad ending. Yep. And in dishonored, the bad ending is talked about as "punishment" or consequences for the player. You simply cant make good choices ethically and get bad ending.