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Which is why I once sang in a choir for a couple of years. Nothing beats perfect harmony. Similarly, I was once convinced everyone in our jazz-rock band was ou

Which is why I once sang in a choir for a couple of years. Nothing beats perfect harmony. Similarly, I was once convinced everyone in our jazz-rock band was out of tune after I had experimented with alternative tunings at home the whole day. Yeah, equal temperament is really quite a bit out of tune, but somehow we seem to manage just fine.

OscarCunningham 6y ago
When you're singing in perfect harmony, are you trying to be in tune with the people singing simultaneously to you or with the previous note sung? Presumably there are times when you can't do both at once. For example if you were singing a major second above someone else, and then you had to jump a perfect fifth and they had to jump a major sixth to end up singing in unison. At least one of those intervals is going to be out of tune.
- edejong 6y ago
  Oh yes, sometimes you actually notice this, often when approaching a certain note from above and below. Depending on the harmonic function, the major seconds are not always the same size and you end up singing out of tune. So, one always tries to understand the harmonic function of the choir as a whole in relationship with the structure of the piece. For example, if tension is needed, one can sing even more towards a dissonant diminished fifth. Close harmony is all about that.
- nemetroid 6y ago
  If you try to keep in tune with previous notes, you will often start wandering away from the original key. This video has a good example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYhPAbsIqA8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYhPAbsIqA8 So in a choral context, you would typically aim to be in tune with the people singing simultaneously. The root note of each chord is pitched according to equal temperament. This has its downsides as well. Consider the chord progression Em -> A7: both chords contain the note G, which in the first chord acts as a minor third, and in the second chord as a minor seventh. The minor third should be pitched 16% of a semitone (cents) above equal temperament, and if we're doing really just intonation and pitching minor sevenths as harmonic minor sevenths, the minor seventh should be pitched 31 cents below equal temperament. So consider a voicing where one voice should hold a G across both chords: this means that even though it's singing the "same" note, the voice should drop 47 cents when the chord changes - almost a full quarter tone! This video from the excellent Voces8 ensemble has an example of how this might sound, at 55:50 (between the first two notes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDXbQ-2_sns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDXbQ-2_sns I highly recommend watching the whole thing, it goes into a lot of detail about the practical implications of singing in just intonation. For the problem described above, one solution is to avoid the issue by tuning minor sevenths using equal temperament in tricky cases like this one.
  - edejong 6y ago
    Really nice! Just got a chance to watch it. Such a nice explanation and he gives very nice examples of how intonation is a puzzle and a bit of an art, even for choirs.
kansface 6y ago
Maybe not so much for a whole band, but for the classical guitar, people seem to tune the instrument slightly different for each piece (in a given key) and sometimes in the middle of a performance! Anecdotally, moving from something in e to d sounds terrible without adjustment.

OscarCunningham 6y ago

When you're singing in perfect harmony, are you trying to be in tune with the people singing simultaneously to you or with the previous note sung? Presumably there are times when you can't do both at once. For example if you were singing a major second above someone else, and then you had to jump a perfect fifth and they had to jump a major sixth to end up singing in unison. At least one of those intervals is going to be out of tune.

edejong 6y ago
Oh yes, sometimes you actually notice this, often when approaching a certain note from above and below. Depending on the harmonic function, the major seconds are not always the same size and you end up singing out of tune. So, one always tries to understand the harmonic function of the choir as a whole in relationship with the structure of the piece. For example, if tension is needed, one can sing even more towards a dissonant diminished fifth. Close harmony is all about that.
nemetroid 6y ago
If you try to keep in tune with previous notes, you will often start wandering away from the original key. This video has a good example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYhPAbsIqA8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYhPAbsIqA8 So in a choral context, you would typically aim to be in tune with the people singing simultaneously. The root note of each chord is pitched according to equal temperament. This has its downsides as well. Consider the chord progression Em -> A7: both chords contain the note G, which in the first chord acts as a minor third, and in the second chord as a minor seventh. The minor third should be pitched 16% of a semitone (cents) above equal temperament, and if we're doing really just intonation and pitching minor sevenths as harmonic minor sevenths, the minor seventh should be pitched 31 cents below equal temperament. So consider a voicing where one voice should hold a G across both chords: this means that even though it's singing the "same" note, the voice should drop 47 cents when the chord changes - almost a full quarter tone! This video from the excellent Voces8 ensemble has an example of how this might sound, at 55:50 (between the first two notes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDXbQ-2_sns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDXbQ-2_sns I highly recommend watching the whole thing, it goes into a lot of detail about the practical implications of singing in just intonation. For the problem described above, one solution is to avoid the issue by tuning minor sevenths using equal temperament in tricky cases like this one.
- edejong 6y ago
  Really nice! Just got a chance to watch it. Such a nice explanation and he gives very nice examples of how intonation is a puzzle and a bit of an art, even for choirs.

kansface 6y ago

Maybe not so much for a whole band, but for the classical guitar, people seem to tune the instrument slightly different for each piece (in a given key) and sometimes in the middle of a performance! Anecdotally, moving from something in e to d sounds terrible without adjustment.