3 ms·

If you’re in a group with people you don’t know very well and some of them say or do something utterly stupid, you are not automatically one of them. Eg, some p

If you’re in a group with people you don’t know very well and some of them say or do something utterly stupid, you are not automatically one of them. Eg, some people were looting during the protests but it would be ridiculous to say the entire protest is just a bunch of thugs

DanBC 6y ago
If you're in a large group, and many members of that group are by any definition racist, you're going to be called part of a racist group.
- gentleman11 6y ago
  Then the early black lives matter protests were nothing but a bunch of anarchistic rioters and looters. And every cop in those police departments is racist. And all those city councillors too. It isn’t true though and the point is you can’t just go around labelling people like that willy nilly. You can’t just group everyone together based on what the worst of them do. Imagine a world where every honest cop quit in order to avoid being associated with the bad ones
  - maccard 6y ago
    I don't agree with the point you're making at all here. OPs point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by white supremacist groups, you are going to be labelled with it. You're furiously defending an argument that you've made, which is exactly the point that is being made repeatedly in this thread, that's it's very difficult to have a discussion on many of these topics because the debate turns to this very quickly.
    - dependenttypes 6y ago
      In the same spirit, gentleman11's point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by looters and rioters, you are going to be labelled with it. > You're furiously defending an argument that you've made More like trying to show to DanBC that their line of thinking is illogical. Regardless, I do not see anything furious about it.
      - DanBC 6y ago
        There's nothing illogical about describing as racist a group of people who make Nazi salutes, who attack black people, who spray racist graffiti. I'm pointing out that this is a simplistic, dishonest, framing: > Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories[1]. A more honest framing would be "people out protecting Churchill statutes, many of them making Nazi salutes and chanting racist slogans, are labelled as racists in several stories". This isn't just the extreme left calling everything racist. Here's the Telegraph[1] quoting Boris Johnson[2] who condemns "racist thuggery". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matt... [1] A right wing newspaper. [2] A right wing PM.
        dependenttypes 6y ago
        Why are you repeating the same thing over and over while ignoring the argument given? Oh well, here, let's repeat it. "There's nothing illogical about describing as looters and rioters a group of people who break windows, steal from shops, set buildings and cars on fire." You can extend the same argument to have racist undertones by including all black people for example because there are some criminals among them. Racism is bad not because it is racism but rather because it is yet another instance of prejudice and generalization.
        textgel 6y ago
        > There's nothing illogical about describing as racist a group of people who make Nazi salutes, who attack black people, who spray racist graffiti. However that's not what you were doing; you were stating the point that being with a group doing x means you will labelled as x. > If you're in a large group, and many members of that group are by any definition racist, you're going to be called part of a racist group. Now whether you meant that that is a case of will be vs should was not covered but that was what the original point was. The new point about framing would be in relation to the original point made where all in the protest centred around protection of the statues were labelled racist for doing so by major news organisations. At a guess there's at least two frustrations made in that that I can immediately think of 1) the lack of nuance from the papers (probably a hopeless ask given the way media operates in general for any story they handle but something worth discussing) And 2) the hypocrisy displayed. We've seen the recent riots described as "mostly peaceful protests" time after time when a simple look at the stories and videos coming out show anything but yet the difference in the media descriptions of the two is pretty glaring would you agree?
notahacker 6y ago
If the protest which gets the media coverage for fighting police is an organised group of football hooligans run by prominent far-right activists, and there are widespread Nazi salutes, it's probably not incumbent on the media to 'some of them were good people' away the nature of the group you've joined up with. Even the also in-attendance group of veterans which was very angry at media coverage for suggesting there might be racists descending on London acknowledged in their rush to disassociate themselves that the larger and longer lasting football hooligan protest which got into the actual fights was explicitly racist.

DanBC 6y ago

If you're in a large group, and many members of that group are by any definition racist, you're going to be called part of a racist group.

gentleman11 6y ago
Then the early black lives matter protests were nothing but a bunch of anarchistic rioters and looters. And every cop in those police departments is racist. And all those city councillors too. It isn’t true though and the point is you can’t just go around labelling people like that willy nilly. You can’t just group everyone together based on what the worst of them do. Imagine a world where every honest cop quit in order to avoid being associated with the bad ones
- maccard 6y ago
  I don't agree with the point you're making at all here. OPs point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by white supremacist groups, you are going to be labelled with it. You're furiously defending an argument that you've made, which is exactly the point that is being made repeatedly in this thread, that's it's very difficult to have a discussion on many of these topics because the debate turns to this very quickly.
  - dependenttypes 6y ago
    In the same spirit, gentleman11's point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by looters and rioters, you are going to be labelled with it. > You're furiously defending an argument that you've made More like trying to show to DanBC that their line of thinking is illogical. Regardless, I do not see anything furious about it.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      There's nothing illogical about describing as racist a group of people who make Nazi salutes, who attack black people, who spray racist graffiti. I'm pointing out that this is a simplistic, dishonest, framing: > Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories[1]. A more honest framing would be "people out protecting Churchill statutes, many of them making Nazi salutes and chanting racist slogans, are labelled as racists in several stories". This isn't just the extreme left calling everything racist. Here's the Telegraph[1] quoting Boris Johnson[2] who condemns "racist thuggery". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matt... [1] A right wing newspaper. [2] A right wing PM.
      - dependenttypes 6y ago
        Why are you repeating the same thing over and over while ignoring the argument given? Oh well, here, let's repeat it. "There's nothing illogical about describing as looters and rioters a group of people who break windows, steal from shops, set buildings and cars on fire." You can extend the same argument to have racist undertones by including all black people for example because there are some criminals among them. Racism is bad not because it is racism but rather because it is yet another instance of prejudice and generalization.
      - textgel 6y ago
        > There's nothing illogical about describing as racist a group of people who make Nazi salutes, who attack black people, who spray racist graffiti. However that's not what you were doing; you were stating the point that being with a group doing x means you will labelled as x. > If you're in a large group, and many members of that group are by any definition racist, you're going to be called part of a racist group. Now whether you meant that that is a case of will be vs should was not covered but that was what the original point was. The new point about framing would be in relation to the original point made where all in the protest centred around protection of the statues were labelled racist for doing so by major news organisations. At a guess there's at least two frustrations made in that that I can immediately think of 1) the lack of nuance from the papers (probably a hopeless ask given the way media operates in general for any story they handle but something worth discussing) And 2) the hypocrisy displayed. We've seen the recent riots described as "mostly peaceful protests" time after time when a simple look at the stories and videos coming out show anything but yet the difference in the media descriptions of the two is pretty glaring would you agree?

notahacker 6y ago

If the protest which gets the media coverage for fighting police is an organised group of football hooligans run by prominent far-right activists, and there are widespread Nazi salutes, it's probably not incumbent on the media to 'some of them were good people' away the nature of the group you've joined up with. Even the also in-attendance group of veterans which was very angry at media coverage for suggesting there might be racists descending on London acknowledged in their rush to disassociate themselves that the larger and longer lasting football hooligan protest which got into the actual fights was explicitly racist.