4 ms·

> Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories You missed out the bit where some of them were doing Nazi sa

by DanBC 6y ago

> Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories You missed out the bit where some of them were doing Nazi salutes or carrying EDL / Britain First etc flags.

gentleman11 6y ago
If you’re in a group with people you don’t know very well and some of them say or do something utterly stupid, you are not automatically one of them. Eg, some people were looting during the protests but it would be ridiculous to say the entire protest is just a bunch of thugs
- DanBC 6y ago
  If you're in a large group, and many members of that group are by any definition racist, you're going to be called part of a racist group.
  - gentleman11 6y ago
    Then the early black lives matter protests were nothing but a bunch of anarchistic rioters and looters. And every cop in those police departments is racist. And all those city councillors too. It isn’t true though and the point is you can’t just go around labelling people like that willy nilly. You can’t just group everyone together based on what the worst of them do. Imagine a world where every honest cop quit in order to avoid being associated with the bad ones
    - maccard 6y ago
      I don't agree with the point you're making at all here. OPs point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by white supremacist groups, you are going to be labelled with it. You're furiously defending an argument that you've made, which is exactly the point that is being made repeatedly in this thread, that's it's very difficult to have a discussion on many of these topics because the debate turns to this very quickly.
      - dependenttypes 6y ago
        In the same spirit, gentleman11's point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by looters and rioters, you are going to be labelled with it. > You're furiously defending an argument that you've made More like trying to show to DanBC that their line of thinking is illogical. Regardless, I do not see anything furious about it.
        DanBC 6y ago
        There's nothing illogical about describing as racist a group of people who make Nazi salutes, who attack black people, who spray racist graffiti. I'm pointing out that this is a simplistic, dishonest, framing: > Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories[1]. A more honest framing would be "people out protecting Churchill statutes, many of them making Nazi salutes and chanting racist slogans, are labelled as racists in several stories". This isn't just the extreme left calling everything racist. Here's the Telegraph[1] quoting Boris Johnson[2] who condemns "racist thuggery". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matt... [1] A right wing newspaper. [2] A right wing PM.
        dependenttypes 6y ago
        Why are you repeating the same thing over and over while ignoring the argument given? Oh well, here, let's repeat it. "There's nothing illogical about describing as looters and rioters a group of people who break windows, steal from shops, set buildings and cars on fire." You can extend the same argument to have racist undertones by including all black people for example because there are some criminals among them. Racism is bad not because it is racism but rather because it is yet another instance of prejudice and generalization.
        textgel 6y ago
        > There's nothing illogical about describing as racist a group of people who make Nazi salutes, who attack black people, who spray racist graffiti. However that's not what you were doing; you were stating the point that being with a group doing x means you will labelled as x. > If you're in a large group, and many members of that group are by any definition racist, you're going to be called part of a racist group. Now whether you meant that that is a case of will be vs should was not covered but that was what the original point was. The new point about framing would be in relation to the original point made where all in the protest centred around protection of the statues were labelled racist for doing so by major news organisations. At a guess there's at least two frustrations made in that that I can immediately think of 1) the lack of nuance from the papers (probably a hopeless ask given the way media operates in general for any story they handle but something worth discussing) And 2) the hypocrisy displayed. We've seen the recent riots described as "mostly peaceful protests" time after time when a simple look at the stories and videos coming out show anything but yet the difference in the media descriptions of the two is pretty glaring would you agree?
- notahacker 6y ago
  If the protest which gets the media coverage for fighting police is an organised group of football hooligans run by prominent far-right activists, and there are widespread Nazi salutes, it's probably not incumbent on the media to 'some of them were good people' away the nature of the group you've joined up with. Even the also in-attendance group of veterans which was very angry at media coverage for suggesting there might be racists descending on London acknowledged in their rush to disassociate themselves that the larger and longer lasting football hooligan protest which got into the actual fights was explicitly racist.
Aengeuad 6y ago
With all the talk of people doing Nazi salutes it seemed like you could open any news story about the counter-protests and you'd see clear evidence of Neo-Nazis but it was anything but, even when people point to videos [0] that are supposed to demonstrate the Nazi salute it's a struggle to even figure out who is supposed to be doing it. Another video [1] of that same scene is even less supportive of the claim of Nazi salutes. The discussion on such videos at the time always devolved into bickering about how strict the salute had to be before it counts on videos that were overwhelmingly of people with one or both arms in the air, closed fist salutes, people literally pointing, stills out of context, etc, on videos that were always accompanied by football chanting. I don't think I saw a single example of a strict or even semi-strict Nazi salute from a couple of days of casually looking up the news on the counter-protests despite every thread having a dozen people that were quick to point out that the protestors were racists doing the Nazi salute. As far as the EDL / Britain First goes, this is literally the first time I'm hearing that the leader of Britain First showed up, it seems like it was drowned out of the news completely. Are there any pictures of said flags or the scale of their involvement? I don't recall seeing any at the time and I can't find any pics at all. Edit: Found one [2], it's of the leader. [0] https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1271763042745925632 https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1271763042745925632 [1] https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1271761377317851136 https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1271761377317851136 [2] https://twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1271772683013931008 https://twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1271772683013931008
- DanBC 6y ago
  > this is literally the first time I'm hearing that the leader of Britain First showed up It's somewhat frustrating that people who do not know who attended the demonstration are telling me that I'm wrong when I say it was mostly comprised of recognised far right groups. The protests were organised by far right groups such as FLA / DLFA, with calls from people like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and Paul Golding for people to attend. Here's a photo of a Britain First flag: https://twitter.com/harshmallow01/status/1272099528175386625/photo/1 https://twitter.com/harshmallow01/status/1272099528175386625... (This is the un-modified version). Here's Stephen Yaxley Lennon calling on the Football Lads Alliance (a recognised far right leader talking to a recognised far right group) https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/06/08/football-hooligans-and-far-right-plan-london-demonstration/ https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/06/08/football-hooligans... Here's a right-wing source, describing a right wing PM who calls the protest "racist thuggery". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matt...
rimliu 6y ago
So if there is a peaceful protest and some looters pop up, what does it make of the protestors?

by DanBC 6y ago

gentleman11 6y ago

If you’re in a group with people you don’t know very well and some of them say or do something utterly stupid, you are not automatically one of them. Eg, some people were looting during the protests but it would be ridiculous to say the entire protest is just a bunch of thugs

DanBC 6y ago
If you're in a large group, and many members of that group are by any definition racist, you're going to be called part of a racist group.
- gentleman11 6y ago
  Then the early black lives matter protests were nothing but a bunch of anarchistic rioters and looters. And every cop in those police departments is racist. And all those city councillors too. It isn’t true though and the point is you can’t just go around labelling people like that willy nilly. You can’t just group everyone together based on what the worst of them do. Imagine a world where every honest cop quit in order to avoid being associated with the bad ones
  - maccard 6y ago
    I don't agree with the point you're making at all here. OPs point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by white supremacist groups, you are going to be labelled with it. You're furiously defending an argument that you've made, which is exactly the point that is being made repeatedly in this thread, that's it's very difficult to have a discussion on many of these topics because the debate turns to this very quickly.
    - dependenttypes 6y ago
      In the same spirit, gentleman11's point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by looters and rioters, you are going to be labelled with it. > You're furiously defending an argument that you've made More like trying to show to DanBC that their line of thinking is illogical. Regardless, I do not see anything furious about it.
      - DanBC 6y ago
        There's nothing illogical about describing as racist a group of people who make Nazi salutes, who attack black people, who spray racist graffiti. I'm pointing out that this is a simplistic, dishonest, framing: > Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories[1]. A more honest framing would be "people out protecting Churchill statutes, many of them making Nazi salutes and chanting racist slogans, are labelled as racists in several stories". This isn't just the extreme left calling everything racist. Here's the Telegraph[1] quoting Boris Johnson[2] who condemns "racist thuggery". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matt... [1] A right wing newspaper. [2] A right wing PM.
        dependenttypes 6y ago
        Why are you repeating the same thing over and over while ignoring the argument given? Oh well, here, let's repeat it. "There's nothing illogical about describing as looters and rioters a group of people who break windows, steal from shops, set buildings and cars on fire." You can extend the same argument to have racist undertones by including all black people for example because there are some criminals among them. Racism is bad not because it is racism but rather because it is yet another instance of prejudice and generalization.
        textgel 6y ago
        > There's nothing illogical about describing as racist a group of people who make Nazi salutes, who attack black people, who spray racist graffiti. However that's not what you were doing; you were stating the point that being with a group doing x means you will labelled as x. > If you're in a large group, and many members of that group are by any definition racist, you're going to be called part of a racist group. Now whether you meant that that is a case of will be vs should was not covered but that was what the original point was. The new point about framing would be in relation to the original point made where all in the protest centred around protection of the statues were labelled racist for doing so by major news organisations. At a guess there's at least two frustrations made in that that I can immediately think of 1) the lack of nuance from the papers (probably a hopeless ask given the way media operates in general for any story they handle but something worth discussing) And 2) the hypocrisy displayed. We've seen the recent riots described as "mostly peaceful protests" time after time when a simple look at the stories and videos coming out show anything but yet the difference in the media descriptions of the two is pretty glaring would you agree?
notahacker 6y ago
If the protest which gets the media coverage for fighting police is an organised group of football hooligans run by prominent far-right activists, and there are widespread Nazi salutes, it's probably not incumbent on the media to 'some of them were good people' away the nature of the group you've joined up with. Even the also in-attendance group of veterans which was very angry at media coverage for suggesting there might be racists descending on London acknowledged in their rush to disassociate themselves that the larger and longer lasting football hooligan protest which got into the actual fights was explicitly racist.

Aengeuad 6y ago

With all the talk of people doing Nazi salutes it seemed like you could open any news story about the counter-protests and you'd see clear evidence of Neo-Nazis but it was anything but, even when people point to videos [0] that are supposed to demonstrate the Nazi salute it's a struggle to even figure out who is supposed to be doing it. Another video [1] of that same scene is even less supportive of the claim of Nazi salutes. The discussion on such videos at the time always devolved into bickering about how strict the salute had to be before it counts on videos that were overwhelmingly of people with one or both arms in the air, closed fist salutes, people literally pointing, stills out of context, etc, on videos that were always accompanied by football chanting. I don't think I saw a single example of a strict or even semi-strict Nazi salute from a couple of days of casually looking up the news on the counter-protests despite every thread having a dozen people that were quick to point out that the protestors were racists doing the Nazi salute. As far as the EDL / Britain First goes, this is literally the first time I'm hearing that the leader of Britain First showed up, it seems like it was drowned out of the news completely. Are there any pictures of said flags or the scale of their involvement? I don't recall seeing any at the time and I can't find any pics at all. Edit: Found one [2], it's of the leader. [0] https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1271763042745925632 https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1271763042745925632 [1] https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1271761377317851136 https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1271761377317851136 [2] https://twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1271772683013931008 https://twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1271772683013931008

DanBC 6y ago
> this is literally the first time I'm hearing that the leader of Britain First showed up It's somewhat frustrating that people who do not know who attended the demonstration are telling me that I'm wrong when I say it was mostly comprised of recognised far right groups. The protests were organised by far right groups such as FLA / DLFA, with calls from people like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and Paul Golding for people to attend. Here's a photo of a Britain First flag: https://twitter.com/harshmallow01/status/1272099528175386625/photo/1 https://twitter.com/harshmallow01/status/1272099528175386625... (This is the un-modified version). Here's Stephen Yaxley Lennon calling on the Football Lads Alliance (a recognised far right leader talking to a recognised far right group) https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/06/08/football-hooligans-and-far-right-plan-london-demonstration/ https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/06/08/football-hooligans... Here's a right-wing source, describing a right wing PM who calls the protest "racist thuggery". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matt...

rimliu 6y ago

So if there is a peaceful protest and some looters pop up, what does it make of the protestors?