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Fascism was a political situation in 1930s italy. I think the commentor is objecting to this new, rhetorical use of the term which essentially connects any "nos

Fascism was a political situation in 1930s italy. I think the commentor is objecting to this new, rhetorical use of the term which essentially connects any "nostalgic, authoriatrian" impulse to a 1930s-style tyranny. The left's use of "fascism" today is much like the rights use of "socialism/communism".

grey-area 6y ago
Just like the symbol of fasces was only used in ancient Rome and has no other meaning? Or the swastika, used in India as a symbol meaning wellbeing? Do you genuinely think symbolism and the meaning of words isn't plastic and contingent on context?
- mjburgess 6y ago
  I think when people trade on the negative connotations of "fascism" and then turn around and go "oh i mean this..." they're being duplicitous and alarmist. The antifa lot essentially define fascism as an eternal set of human psychological impulses: nostalgia, in-group preference, desire for cultural homogenity, etc. These did not lead to Fascism, the "obviously bad thing" which they are being alarmist about. Fascism was a direct result of, and contingent upon, the mass death and poverty caused by WWI. Words do have meaning, and it is precisely the negative connotations of fascism that are being appealed to in the accusation. Absent these connotations, almost everyone is fascist some of the time.
  - bluescarni 6y ago
    > Fascism was a direct result of, and contingent upon, the mass death and poverty caused by WWI. That is grossly wrong. There was no "mass death and poverty" in Italy during or after WWI.
    - mjburgess 6y ago
      wtf are you talking about? Half a million Italians died in WW1. And as many again from the spanish flu. And all of Europe was in a permanent condition of poverty until way into the 20th C. 80% of the population was poor working class even in 1970. You do not get Russian communism without the prolonged period of slavery called "serfdom" which persisted into the late 19th C. in russia. You do not get fascism in italy without WW1. This isn't controversial in political science.
      - bluescarni 6y ago
        The Italian deaths in WW1 were overwhelmingly soldier deaths, as the fighting on Italian soil was limited to north-east border of the country (where incidentally I am from). The civilian population was largely unaffected by the war. > And as many again from the spanish flu. Who talked about flu? You were talking about WW1, now you are pivoting to the flu? > And all of Europe was in a permanent condition of poverty until way into the 20th C. 80% of the population was poor working class even in 1970. This is also grossly wrong. I suggest you better inform yourself about the 20-th century history of European societies before spouting more nonsense.
        mjburgess 6y ago
        WW1 was a total war. Fascism was a response to total war which conscripted every civilian into the military. Italy did not have an army of 500,000 soliders before WW1, no country did. The british empire's armed force was 80,000 -- and was one of the largest in the world. Where do you think 500,000 "soliders" came from? They were drafted from the population. It's literally in the first paragraph in the wikipedia article on fascism... > Fascists saw World War I as a revolution that brought massive changes to the nature of war, society, the state, and technology. The advent of total war and the total mass mobilization of society had broken down the distinction between civilians and combatants. A "military citizenship" arose in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner during the war. > I suggest you better inform yourself about the 20-th century history of European societies before spouting more nonsense. I'm British and I know my own history very well. Read any book of the time, "Road to Wigan Peer" will give you the quality of poverty.. and any graph by any serious economic study of human history will give you the actual level of wealth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_World_War_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_World_War_...
  - throwaway49872 6y ago
    > The antifa lot essentially define fascism as an eternal set of human psychological impulses: nostalgia, in-group preference, desire for cultural homogenity, etc. Add authoritarianism and militarism to it and you have the definition used by historians and political scientists. > Fascism was a direct result of, and contingent upon, the mass death and poverty caused by WWI. "mass death and poverty" in Italy? This is plain false. But it's also besides the point: The word "fascism" is used to describe any similar pattern of thought and behavior, just like "communism", "skepticism", "pacifism".
    - mjburgess 6y ago
      Then it is nearly meaningless and just a term of abuse. Fascism is not "skepticism". By this definition of fascism, antifa are fascists and so are all governments and most people. This may be how some use the term, just as some use "communism" to describe any use of the state. It's pseudo-political nonesense that's just a term of abuse.
      - mcv 6y ago
        Now you're just making words meaningless. Fascism is a reasonably well-defined ideology. Not every use of the word applies it correctly, and I've even seen convincing arguments that Nazism wasn't true fascism while Stalinism was, but this is what's generally meant by fascism: an ideology where everything revolves around a great leader, his inner circle, the party, the "true" people, and where every aspect of society serves this unity of concentric circles. It's explicitly totalitarian and doesn't tolerate dissent or different opinions; everybody needs to be loyal to the leader, or is considered an enemy of the people. Antifa, by comparison, doesn't even have a leader. And doesn't want one either.
        mjburgess 6y ago
        Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#%22Fascist%22_as_a_pejorative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#%22Fascist%22_as_a_pej... > it's explicitly totalitarian and doesn't tolerate dissent or different opinions; everybody needs to be loyal to the leader, or is considered an enemy of the people. Right, which is most echo-chambres. Under a psychological definition, we're all fascists. An echo-chambre is totalizing (ie., everything is subsumed under the ideology), it has unimpeachable leadership, and no dissent is considered. Try r/feminism or r/conservatism. Fascism isn't an ideology in the modern "world view" or psychological sense... that's the impact of psychoanalysts being, somehow, the main people humanities students turned towards for explanations of the 20th C. The right people to turn to are political scientists, wherein fascism is an ideology in the sense of "state apparatuses, doctrines, institutions, practices, economic conditions", etc. In which case Stalinism wasn't fascism, nor was Nazism. Nor were many things. Fascism quickly became a term of abuse in tabloids of the 40s, esp. in america. And here we are today with everybody being fascists. There is no deep connection between the "psychological fascism" that is of rhetorical interest to the left, and the state apparatuses of fascist italy. This connection is a pseudo-scientific one from the psychoanalysis of the 50s and 60s; and it is a duplicitous and alarmist one from the left today.
  - bonzini 6y ago
    Fascism was a direct result of social conflict and worker's movements in Italy after WWI. Check out the "biennio rosso" (two red years); "The revolutionary period was followed by the violent reaction of the Fascist blackshirts militia and eventually by the March on Rome of Benito Mussolini in 1922"[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biennio_Rosso https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biennio_Rosso

grey-area 6y ago

Just like the symbol of fasces was only used in ancient Rome and has no other meaning? Or the swastika, used in India as a symbol meaning wellbeing? Do you genuinely think symbolism and the meaning of words isn't plastic and contingent on context?

mjburgess 6y ago
I think when people trade on the negative connotations of "fascism" and then turn around and go "oh i mean this..." they're being duplicitous and alarmist. The antifa lot essentially define fascism as an eternal set of human psychological impulses: nostalgia, in-group preference, desire for cultural homogenity, etc. These did not lead to Fascism, the "obviously bad thing" which they are being alarmist about. Fascism was a direct result of, and contingent upon, the mass death and poverty caused by WWI. Words do have meaning, and it is precisely the negative connotations of fascism that are being appealed to in the accusation. Absent these connotations, almost everyone is fascist some of the time.
- bluescarni 6y ago
  > Fascism was a direct result of, and contingent upon, the mass death and poverty caused by WWI. That is grossly wrong. There was no "mass death and poverty" in Italy during or after WWI.
  - mjburgess 6y ago
    wtf are you talking about? Half a million Italians died in WW1. And as many again from the spanish flu. And all of Europe was in a permanent condition of poverty until way into the 20th C. 80% of the population was poor working class even in 1970. You do not get Russian communism without the prolonged period of slavery called "serfdom" which persisted into the late 19th C. in russia. You do not get fascism in italy without WW1. This isn't controversial in political science.
    - bluescarni 6y ago
      The Italian deaths in WW1 were overwhelmingly soldier deaths, as the fighting on Italian soil was limited to north-east border of the country (where incidentally I am from). The civilian population was largely unaffected by the war. > And as many again from the spanish flu. Who talked about flu? You were talking about WW1, now you are pivoting to the flu? > And all of Europe was in a permanent condition of poverty until way into the 20th C. 80% of the population was poor working class even in 1970. This is also grossly wrong. I suggest you better inform yourself about the 20-th century history of European societies before spouting more nonsense.
      - mjburgess 6y ago
        WW1 was a total war. Fascism was a response to total war which conscripted every civilian into the military. Italy did not have an army of 500,000 soliders before WW1, no country did. The british empire's armed force was 80,000 -- and was one of the largest in the world. Where do you think 500,000 "soliders" came from? They were drafted from the population. It's literally in the first paragraph in the wikipedia article on fascism... > Fascists saw World War I as a revolution that brought massive changes to the nature of war, society, the state, and technology. The advent of total war and the total mass mobilization of society had broken down the distinction between civilians and combatants. A "military citizenship" arose in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner during the war. > I suggest you better inform yourself about the 20-th century history of European societies before spouting more nonsense. I'm British and I know my own history very well. Read any book of the time, "Road to Wigan Peer" will give you the quality of poverty.. and any graph by any serious economic study of human history will give you the actual level of wealth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_World_War_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_World_War_...
- throwaway49872 6y ago
  > The antifa lot essentially define fascism as an eternal set of human psychological impulses: nostalgia, in-group preference, desire for cultural homogenity, etc. Add authoritarianism and militarism to it and you have the definition used by historians and political scientists. > Fascism was a direct result of, and contingent upon, the mass death and poverty caused by WWI. "mass death and poverty" in Italy? This is plain false. But it's also besides the point: The word "fascism" is used to describe any similar pattern of thought and behavior, just like "communism", "skepticism", "pacifism".
  - mjburgess 6y ago
    Then it is nearly meaningless and just a term of abuse. Fascism is not "skepticism". By this definition of fascism, antifa are fascists and so are all governments and most people. This may be how some use the term, just as some use "communism" to describe any use of the state. It's pseudo-political nonesense that's just a term of abuse.
    - mcv 6y ago
      Now you're just making words meaningless. Fascism is a reasonably well-defined ideology. Not every use of the word applies it correctly, and I've even seen convincing arguments that Nazism wasn't true fascism while Stalinism was, but this is what's generally meant by fascism: an ideology where everything revolves around a great leader, his inner circle, the party, the "true" people, and where every aspect of society serves this unity of concentric circles. It's explicitly totalitarian and doesn't tolerate dissent or different opinions; everybody needs to be loyal to the leader, or is considered an enemy of the people. Antifa, by comparison, doesn't even have a leader. And doesn't want one either.
      - mjburgess 6y ago
        Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#%22Fascist%22_as_a_pejorative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#%22Fascist%22_as_a_pej... > it's explicitly totalitarian and doesn't tolerate dissent or different opinions; everybody needs to be loyal to the leader, or is considered an enemy of the people. Right, which is most echo-chambres. Under a psychological definition, we're all fascists. An echo-chambre is totalizing (ie., everything is subsumed under the ideology), it has unimpeachable leadership, and no dissent is considered. Try r/feminism or r/conservatism. Fascism isn't an ideology in the modern "world view" or psychological sense... that's the impact of psychoanalysts being, somehow, the main people humanities students turned towards for explanations of the 20th C. The right people to turn to are political scientists, wherein fascism is an ideology in the sense of "state apparatuses, doctrines, institutions, practices, economic conditions", etc. In which case Stalinism wasn't fascism, nor was Nazism. Nor were many things. Fascism quickly became a term of abuse in tabloids of the 40s, esp. in america. And here we are today with everybody being fascists. There is no deep connection between the "psychological fascism" that is of rhetorical interest to the left, and the state apparatuses of fascist italy. This connection is a pseudo-scientific one from the psychoanalysis of the 50s and 60s; and it is a duplicitous and alarmist one from the left today.
- bonzini 6y ago
  Fascism was a direct result of social conflict and worker's movements in Italy after WWI. Check out the "biennio rosso" (two red years); "The revolutionary period was followed by the violent reaction of the Fascist blackshirts militia and eventually by the March on Rome of Benito Mussolini in 1922"[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biennio_Rosso https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biennio_Rosso