5 ms·

In mainstream news (ap, CBC, bbc, others), increasingly people and groups are being labelled as racist without any discretion. Eg, people out protecting Churchi

In mainstream news (ap, CBC, bbc, others), increasingly people and groups are being labelled as racist without any discretion. Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories[1]. Surely, there is at least one racist in the group, but increasingly every single person who doesn’t tow the line is being called out - entire police departments, mayors, city councils, schools, news organizations - everyone is either supporting the cause or else is a racist, with no evidence or scrutiny being applied. How can entire police departments be racist? Entire companies? [1] to be fair, Churchill was a racist and a colonialist. He opposed Ghandi. He also helped defeat fascism and naziism and is an important historical figure. Defending a Churchill statue does not automatically make everybody in the vicinity a nazi.

SllX 6y ago
At some point a word becomes so overused it loses all meaning. The guy who created the word genocide also created the word vandalism. He intended for both actions these words described to be looked at with abject horror and thus applied as infrequently as possible so that they would retain their meaning. When everyone is racist, effectively no one is.
DanBC 6y ago
> Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories You missed out the bit where some of them were doing Nazi salutes or carrying EDL / Britain First etc flags.
- gentleman11 6y ago
  If you’re in a group with people you don’t know very well and some of them say or do something utterly stupid, you are not automatically one of them. Eg, some people were looting during the protests but it would be ridiculous to say the entire protest is just a bunch of thugs
  - DanBC 6y ago
    If you're in a large group, and many members of that group are by any definition racist, you're going to be called part of a racist group.
    - gentleman11 6y ago
      Then the early black lives matter protests were nothing but a bunch of anarchistic rioters and looters. And every cop in those police departments is racist. And all those city councillors too. It isn’t true though and the point is you can’t just go around labelling people like that willy nilly. You can’t just group everyone together based on what the worst of them do. Imagine a world where every honest cop quit in order to avoid being associated with the bad ones
      - maccard 6y ago
        I don't agree with the point you're making at all here. OPs point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by white supremacist groups, you are going to be labelled with it. You're furiously defending an argument that you've made, which is exactly the point that is being made repeatedly in this thread, that's it's very difficult to have a discussion on many of these topics because the debate turns to this very quickly.
        dependenttypes 6y ago
        In the same spirit, gentleman11's point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by looters and rioters, you are going to be labelled with it. > You're furiously defending an argument that you've made More like trying to show to DanBC that their line of thinking is illogical. Regardless, I do not see anything furious about it.
        DanBC 6y ago
        There's nothing illogical about describing as racist a group of people who make Nazi salutes, who attack black people, who spray racist graffiti. I'm pointing out that this is a simplistic, dishonest, framing: > Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories[1]. A more honest framing would be "people out protecting Churchill statutes, many of them making Nazi salutes and chanting racist slogans, are labelled as racists in several stories". This isn't just the extreme left calling everything racist. Here's the Telegraph[1] quoting Boris Johnson[2] who condemns "racist thuggery". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matt... [1] A right wing newspaper. [2] A right wing PM.
- Aengeuad 6y ago
  With all the talk of people doing Nazi salutes it seemed like you could open any news story about the counter-protests and you'd see clear evidence of Neo-Nazis but it was anything but, even when people point to videos [0] that are supposed to demonstrate the Nazi salute it's a struggle to even figure out who is supposed to be doing it. Another video [1] of that same scene is even less supportive of the claim of Nazi salutes. The discussion on such videos at the time always devolved into bickering about how strict the salute had to be before it counts on videos that were overwhelmingly of people with one or both arms in the air, closed fist salutes, people literally pointing, stills out of context, etc, on videos that were always accompanied by football chanting. I don't think I saw a single example of a strict or even semi-strict Nazi salute from a couple of days of casually looking up the news on the counter-protests despite every thread having a dozen people that were quick to point out that the protestors were racists doing the Nazi salute. As far as the EDL / Britain First goes, this is literally the first time I'm hearing that the leader of Britain First showed up, it seems like it was drowned out of the news completely. Are there any pictures of said flags or the scale of their involvement? I don't recall seeing any at the time and I can't find any pics at all. Edit: Found one [2], it's of the leader. [0] https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1271763042745925632 https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1271763042745925632 [1] https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1271761377317851136 https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1271761377317851136 [2] https://twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1271772683013931008 https://twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1271772683013931008
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > this is literally the first time I'm hearing that the leader of Britain First showed up It's somewhat frustrating that people who do not know who attended the demonstration are telling me that I'm wrong when I say it was mostly comprised of recognised far right groups. The protests were organised by far right groups such as FLA / DLFA, with calls from people like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and Paul Golding for people to attend. Here's a photo of a Britain First flag: https://twitter.com/harshmallow01/status/1272099528175386625/photo/1 https://twitter.com/harshmallow01/status/1272099528175386625... (This is the un-modified version). Here's Stephen Yaxley Lennon calling on the Football Lads Alliance (a recognised far right leader talking to a recognised far right group) https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/06/08/football-hooligans-and-far-right-plan-london-demonstration/ https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/06/08/football-hooligans... Here's a right-wing source, describing a right wing PM who calls the protest "racist thuggery". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matt...
- rimliu 6y ago
  So if there is a peaceful protest and some looters pop up, what does it make of the protestors?
watwut 6y ago
Cause the statue was defended by far-right group. It is not act of defending statue that makes him Paul Golding racist, but the fact that far-right groups are defending the statue while left leaning are against it is definitely notable.
notahacker 6y ago
They were also labelled as racist by right wing newspapers that venerate Churchill and defend the historical value of statues of slave traders, on account of the groups organizing it and how the crowd behaved.
kiplkipl 6y ago
You've not linked any of the stories. Do they actually use the term 'racist'? People loathe being called racist, to the point that if you point out someone is accidentally doing something unhelpful or discriminatory - not calling them racist - then you have to worry about them becoming emotional about it.

SllX 6y ago

At some point a word becomes so overused it loses all meaning. The guy who created the word genocide also created the word vandalism. He intended for both actions these words described to be looked at with abject horror and thus applied as infrequently as possible so that they would retain their meaning. When everyone is racist, effectively no one is.

DanBC 6y ago

> Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories You missed out the bit where some of them were doing Nazi salutes or carrying EDL / Britain First etc flags.

gentleman11 6y ago
If you’re in a group with people you don’t know very well and some of them say or do something utterly stupid, you are not automatically one of them. Eg, some people were looting during the protests but it would be ridiculous to say the entire protest is just a bunch of thugs
- DanBC 6y ago
  If you're in a large group, and many members of that group are by any definition racist, you're going to be called part of a racist group.
  - gentleman11 6y ago
    Then the early black lives matter protests were nothing but a bunch of anarchistic rioters and looters. And every cop in those police departments is racist. And all those city councillors too. It isn’t true though and the point is you can’t just go around labelling people like that willy nilly. You can’t just group everyone together based on what the worst of them do. Imagine a world where every honest cop quit in order to avoid being associated with the bad ones
    - maccard 6y ago
      I don't agree with the point you're making at all here. OPs point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by white supremacist groups, you are going to be labelled with it. You're furiously defending an argument that you've made, which is exactly the point that is being made repeatedly in this thread, that's it's very difficult to have a discussion on many of these topics because the debate turns to this very quickly.
      - dependenttypes 6y ago
        In the same spirit, gentleman11's point is that if you attend a gathering with people you don't know, and that gathering turns out to be heavily represented by looters and rioters, you are going to be labelled with it. > You're furiously defending an argument that you've made More like trying to show to DanBC that their line of thinking is illogical. Regardless, I do not see anything furious about it.
        DanBC 6y ago
        There's nothing illogical about describing as racist a group of people who make Nazi salutes, who attack black people, who spray racist graffiti. I'm pointing out that this is a simplistic, dishonest, framing: > Eg, people out protecting Churchill statues in the UK are labelled as racists in several stories[1]. A more honest framing would be "people out protecting Churchill statutes, many of them making Nazi salutes and chanting racist slogans, are labelled as racists in several stories". This isn't just the extreme left calling everything racist. Here's the Telegraph[1] quoting Boris Johnson[2] who condemns "racist thuggery". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matt... [1] A right wing newspaper. [2] A right wing PM.
Aengeuad 6y ago
With all the talk of people doing Nazi salutes it seemed like you could open any news story about the counter-protests and you'd see clear evidence of Neo-Nazis but it was anything but, even when people point to videos [0] that are supposed to demonstrate the Nazi salute it's a struggle to even figure out who is supposed to be doing it. Another video [1] of that same scene is even less supportive of the claim of Nazi salutes. The discussion on such videos at the time always devolved into bickering about how strict the salute had to be before it counts on videos that were overwhelmingly of people with one or both arms in the air, closed fist salutes, people literally pointing, stills out of context, etc, on videos that were always accompanied by football chanting. I don't think I saw a single example of a strict or even semi-strict Nazi salute from a couple of days of casually looking up the news on the counter-protests despite every thread having a dozen people that were quick to point out that the protestors were racists doing the Nazi salute. As far as the EDL / Britain First goes, this is literally the first time I'm hearing that the leader of Britain First showed up, it seems like it was drowned out of the news completely. Are there any pictures of said flags or the scale of their involvement? I don't recall seeing any at the time and I can't find any pics at all. Edit: Found one [2], it's of the leader. [0] https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1271763042745925632 https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1271763042745925632 [1] https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1271761377317851136 https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1271761377317851136 [2] https://twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1271772683013931008 https://twitter.com/hopenothate/status/1271772683013931008
- DanBC 6y ago
  > this is literally the first time I'm hearing that the leader of Britain First showed up It's somewhat frustrating that people who do not know who attended the demonstration are telling me that I'm wrong when I say it was mostly comprised of recognised far right groups. The protests were organised by far right groups such as FLA / DLFA, with calls from people like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and Paul Golding for people to attend. Here's a photo of a Britain First flag: https://twitter.com/harshmallow01/status/1272099528175386625/photo/1 https://twitter.com/harshmallow01/status/1272099528175386625... (This is the un-modified version). Here's Stephen Yaxley Lennon calling on the Football Lads Alliance (a recognised far right leader talking to a recognised far right group) https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/06/08/football-hooligans-and-far-right-plan-london-demonstration/ https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/06/08/football-hooligans... Here's a right-wing source, describing a right wing PM who calls the protest "racist thuggery". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matter-protests-london-statues-racism-churchill/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/13/black-lives-matt...
rimliu 6y ago
So if there is a peaceful protest and some looters pop up, what does it make of the protestors?

watwut 6y ago

Cause the statue was defended by far-right group. It is not act of defending statue that makes him Paul Golding racist, but the fact that far-right groups are defending the statue while left leaning are against it is definitely notable.

notahacker 6y ago

They were also labelled as racist by right wing newspapers that venerate Churchill and defend the historical value of statues of slave traders, on account of the groups organizing it and how the crowd behaved.

kiplkipl 6y ago

You've not linked any of the stories. Do they actually use the term 'racist'? People loathe being called racist, to the point that if you point out someone is accidentally doing something unhelpful or discriminatory - not calling them racist - then you have to worry about them becoming emotional about it.