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They didn't develop the capability to backdoor phones at the FBI's request. They are generally happy to hand over iCloud backups, which they did in that case a

They didn't develop the capability to backdoor phones at the FBI's request. They are generally happy to hand over iCloud backups, which they did in that case and the FBI "lost" them IIRC. It was also an iPhone 5c, the last iPhone without a Secure Enclave, I believe they were able to get in with GrayKey.

monocasa 6y ago
> They are generally happy to hand over iCloud backups That one they legally have to do when given a subpoena.
- Dahoon 6y ago
  They could encrypt everything and not have the keys. So not really.
  - monocasa 6y ago
    The whole point of the backup is that you'll be able to access it even if you your device and it's keystore are destroyed.
    - modeless 6y ago
      And end-to-end encryption doesn't have to break that: https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h...
      - monocasa 6y ago
        That's not end to end encryption, the key is stored in a HSM in Google's data center in that case. They can be subpoenaed for it.
        modeless 6y ago
        I don't think you understand what the HSM does. By design, the HSM's secret keys cannot be extracted. Not by the physical possessor of the HSM, nor the manufacturer, nor designer. That is the whole point of using an HSM for this. A subpoena cannot compel the impossible.
        monocasa 6y ago
        Nearly all HSMs that store an arbitrary number of keys can be compelled to dump those keys via a special firmware update from the manufacturer of the HSM, or at very least remove checks to allow it to be used as a decryption oracle. Apple was able to say no, because they weren't in physical possession of the HSM, which meant that they couldn't be subpoenaed for information that wasn't actually in their possession, but a judge wouldn't look as highly on google's case.
        modeless 6y ago
        The firmware on these chips erases the keys before applying firmware updates. I encourage you to read the detailed information available rather than just making assumptions about it, or even just the short blog post I linked which states this explicitly. In the San Bernadino case the FBI had physical possession of the HSM, so Apple could have attacked it physically. That's not related to the reasons why the FBI gave up on that case.
        monocasa 6y ago
        > The firmware on these chips erases the keys before firmware updates. I encourage you to read the detailed information available rather than just making assumptions about it, or even just the short blog post I linked which states this explicitly. I read the blog post _and_ the third party security audit. The audit only documents that rogue actors within Google would leave a attestation trail if they tried to push malicious firmware and be noticed by Google proper. My concern isn't rogue actors but Google itself. Additionally the Titan chip in my pixel has received firmware updates without wiping it's storage. > In the San Bernadino case the FBI had physical possession of the HSM, so Apple could have attacked it physically. That's not related to the reasons why the FBI gave up on that case. Right, so the legal distinction between "we want a piece of information in your possession that you have decided to lock from yourself" versus "we want your help receiving information that we have in our possession but can't access" is a very very big difference from a warrant perspective.

monocasa 6y ago

> They are generally happy to hand over iCloud backups That one they legally have to do when given a subpoena.

Dahoon 6y ago
They could encrypt everything and not have the keys. So not really.
- monocasa 6y ago
  The whole point of the backup is that you'll be able to access it even if you your device and it's keystore are destroyed.
  - modeless 6y ago
    And end-to-end encryption doesn't have to break that: https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-have-your-back-by.html https://security.googleblog.com/2018/10/google-and-android-h...
    - monocasa 6y ago
      That's not end to end encryption, the key is stored in a HSM in Google's data center in that case. They can be subpoenaed for it.
      - modeless 6y ago
        I don't think you understand what the HSM does. By design, the HSM's secret keys cannot be extracted. Not by the physical possessor of the HSM, nor the manufacturer, nor designer. That is the whole point of using an HSM for this. A subpoena cannot compel the impossible.
        monocasa 6y ago
        Nearly all HSMs that store an arbitrary number of keys can be compelled to dump those keys via a special firmware update from the manufacturer of the HSM, or at very least remove checks to allow it to be used as a decryption oracle. Apple was able to say no, because they weren't in physical possession of the HSM, which meant that they couldn't be subpoenaed for information that wasn't actually in their possession, but a judge wouldn't look as highly on google's case.
        modeless 6y ago
        The firmware on these chips erases the keys before applying firmware updates. I encourage you to read the detailed information available rather than just making assumptions about it, or even just the short blog post I linked which states this explicitly. In the San Bernadino case the FBI had physical possession of the HSM, so Apple could have attacked it physically. That's not related to the reasons why the FBI gave up on that case.
        monocasa 6y ago
        > The firmware on these chips erases the keys before firmware updates. I encourage you to read the detailed information available rather than just making assumptions about it, or even just the short blog post I linked which states this explicitly. I read the blog post _and_ the third party security audit. The audit only documents that rogue actors within Google would leave a attestation trail if they tried to push malicious firmware and be noticed by Google proper. My concern isn't rogue actors but Google itself. Additionally the Titan chip in my pixel has received firmware updates without wiping it's storage. > In the San Bernadino case the FBI had physical possession of the HSM, so Apple could have attacked it physically. That's not related to the reasons why the FBI gave up on that case. Right, so the legal distinction between "we want a piece of information in your possession that you have decided to lock from yourself" versus "we want your help receiving information that we have in our possession but can't access" is a very very big difference from a warrant perspective.