12 ms·

The Harm of Studying Abroad

85 points by jeffreyrogers 6y ago

elchin 6y ago
I honestly can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. Especially points 4 and 5 - this is when you learn to get out of comfort zone!
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Could just be a resume building puff piece to help him rise in the party machinery.
  - aj7 6y ago
    Didn’t think of that. Well said.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    Written in 2008, though. Hu Jintao was in charge, China was hosting the Olympics, the posture was generally more open to the West. Seems a lot more like a cranky guy than political-favor-currying.
  - wonnage 6y ago
    This is an exasperating bit of casual racism I see all the time. A Chinese person has said something you disagree with, they must have no personal agency, they must be trying to curry favor with the government! the CPC is not Santa Claus, ffs
    - buzzkillington 6y ago
      Are you suggesting that the CPC is ingrained in the DNA of all Chinese? I fail to see how criticizing a political system is racist otherwise.
      - dang 6y ago
        That's obviously not what the parent comment was saying. Would you please stop taking HN threads further into nationalistic, ideological, or political, or any, flamewar? We ban accounts that do this, you've done it repeatedly, and we've asked you already to stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        buzzkillington 6y ago
        Kind of funny you're not banning any of the spam CPC accounts here promoting nationalistic, ideological, and political flames the second you point out the CPC is the only country in the world running actual concentration camps for minorities.
        dang 6y ago
        People accuse us of secretly siding with their enemies when they get moderated. That's cheap and frankly rather silly. The opposite side makes the opposite accusations. Re "spam CPC accounts", concoctions like that are also a cheap-and-rather-silly thing that internet users come up with when they don't like what other internet users say. It's common, poisonous, and inevitably so vacuous that we have a site rule against it- see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. If you had evidence of abuse, you should be emailing it to hn@ycombinator.com so we can look at the actual data. Comments expressing views that go against your own views is not evidence of abuse, it's merely evidence that divisive topics are divisive, which we all know already.
  - Dahoon 6y ago
    Chinese person saying something you don't believe yourself? Must be a brainwashed party drone! Sigh, the racism is running wild on HN too. It really is becoming the new Reddit.
    - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
      You seem to have glossed over all the self-satisfied puffery about lazy Westerners. Throw in a quote from the Classics, doubleplusgood. What do you think is the career trajectory for a lawyer in China?
      - dang 6y ago
        Please do not use HN for nationalistic or ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - president 6y ago
      Since when is making a plausible quip "racism"? It is common knowledge that public statements made by Chinese citizens are scrutinized by the government and are effectively "filtered". People like you have completely diluted the meaning of the word.
      - wonnage 6y ago
        You are asserting that no public statement by a Chinese person can be trusted, how is that not racist
        dang 6y ago
        "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - dang 6y ago
        We've asked you multiple times to stop doing nationalistic flamewar on HN. This comment crosses into personal attack as well. Moreover, it looks like you've been using HN primarily for ideological or political battle. We ban accounts that do these things. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this.
ipnon 6y ago
His point on the nature of Western style debate and argument rings true.
_aleph2c_ 6y ago
If what he says is true, it also means that the creative thinking at the graduate level of many American STEM degrees has been limited. My friends who are professors in American Universities tell me that in a lot of their courses, there isn't an American student in their whole class; their classes are mostly Chinese. So if their whole group has gone through a hazing-education-process, conducted in a foreign language, they will have suffered the kind of spiritual harm described by the author. If they stay in the US to do their graduate work, chances are they won't be thinking out of the box.
- nnoitra 6y ago
  That's because there's very little incentive for doing a Phd so immigrants do it so it helps their immigration status. It would take someone to be insanely in love in CS to forfeit 300K or so compensation for a Phd.
blaser-waffle 6y ago
> The text translated here, written in 2008, has nothing to do with Zhang’s academic work, but instead reflects changing attitudes among younger Chinese intellectuals concerning the value of Western ideas and the experience of studying abroad. > Zhang is surely right that doing an advanced degree in a foreign language is a challenge involving at times a loss of autonomy and a loss of status. More interesting is the overall tone of the text, which comes close to saying that the experience is a waste of time. This is not only because study abroad involves rote learning of someone else’s knowledge, but because China is the place to be. As Zhang puts it: > “If you live abroad for a long time, you will miss many theoretically interesting things happening in China. Society in the West has been settled for hundreds of years, and not that much that is really new occurs. But China is entering a new era, full of potential.” ... Valid points, for sure, but not everyone is reaping that new era full of potential. China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections, but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions. Plus the great explosion of growth of China is now slowing down. Still many developments to come, for sure, but those may not play out in ways we expect. Also think it's hilarious that he's bashing the U of C's "rote learning" when that's a huge part of China's entrance exams, or how foreign Uni's will limit your thought -- cuz the CCP tells Tsinghua "teach what you want", right?
- akfanta 6y ago
  > China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections This might be true for the majority of China, but for big cities like Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, no, connections mean far less even comparing to western world. > but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions. Do you get this from reading western media or did you actually go there and talk to those actual human beings? I can't speak for everywhere, but being an ethnic minority comes with tons of perks in China. For ethnic minorities, one child policy never applied to them, the kids get extra points during high school/university entrance exams, my Mongolian roommate even got extra financial support due to his ethnicity. People would fabricate document to gain minority status because that gives their kids an edge in almost everywhere. Growing up, as a Han Chinese, I always feel this is unfair and absurd. As for religions, again I can't speak for Xinjiang itself, but from my experience in east coast, no one cares what religion you believe in. It's only an issue when you try to challenge the government with it. You can find mosque and churches in most cities. And gay? Believe or not, I know it sounds absurd, but being gay is sort of a hip thing among the youngsters. The will obviously face repulsions from older generations, but this rings true all around the world. Bottom line is, the general public does not actively persecute the LGBT group, nor do they care. The only thing that would bring you trouble is having an opinion against the government. I am not saying this is not a big issue, but stop pretending that the country is constantly oppressing everyone.
vorpalhex 6y ago
From my reading of this, this is just someone who was very isolated due in part to cultural/language barriers. I would be curious if someone who had the same experiences but was less isolated and had social nets would have a very different take. > You sing the praises of whatever it is that your enemy opposes, and you oppose whatever your enemy praises. That screams like someone who feels pushed out and isolated from their immediate society (in this case, the foreign culture they were studying in).
- blackbear_ 6y ago
  I agree with your reading, it feels like most of his issues were due to very different culture and language. As an European who attended university in four European countries I can attest how enriching and fulfilling those years have been, and how much I have grown. I would strongly recommend studying abroad to anybody who has the chance. Even as an introvert it was easy to make friends.
  - schwarzmx 6y ago
    To me it comes down to the language barrier. Not having a good command of English (or the local language) hinders your ability to integrate with the locals. Learning English for a person from a Western country is way easier than for a Chinese person.
    - xtracto 6y ago
      From my experience in the UK it was not. I spoke enough english to write and defend a PHD thesis. Yet I could never "click" with British society... even while being the "friendly mexican" I was just that... and i did want to get more "assimilated " by the culture. It's a cultural thing, some cultures are more open and welcoming than others.
- dawg- 6y ago
  >I would be curious if someone who had the same experiences but was less isolated and had social nets would have a very different take. That's me, and I totally have a different take. I studied abroad as a foreign language major - but only after three full years of studying the language and culture of the country I was visiting. It was an enriching experience and I felt pretty comfortable navigating the country socially and professionally. Study abroad was a requirement for me to graduate. I did the longer trip after a previous two week trip to the same place. I met via skype with my professor back in the US weekly for an independent study course, and that gave me the chance to reflect and make sense of my experiences with a trusted mentor (who was a native of the country herself). The professor even dropped by to visit me in person during her summer trip to the country. I think all of these things factored into making it an amazing experience and time of growth, as opposed to an isolating and depressing experience. Even with all that support and background knowledge I still dealt with my fair share of culture shock, home sickness, and isolation - all of which are important parts of the learning experience, in appropriate doses. But without the support system and preparation I had, I would imagine that the experience could have been very negative. Study abroad is an incredible and enriching experience - but it takes a lot more resources than just buying a college kid a plane ticket to another country and sending them on their way. Of course that can be useful for a certain adventurous types as well. But institutionally, study abroad takes deliberate planning and support to make it meaningful for everybody who participates. Otherwise it can surely be just as bad as this author makes it out to be.
rfreytag 6y ago
Archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20200624180614/https://www.readingthechinadream.com/zhang-yongle-the-harm-of-studying-abroad.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200624180614/https://www.readi...
emiliobumachar 6y ago
Very interesting to hear a Chinese person complain about American higher education as too rote, as I've often read complains in the HN bubble that the Chinese system would be too rote. Perhaps things look too rote from either side if you're missing the culture-specific subtlety? Perhaps things are too rote on both sides but it's only noticed by those from a different background? Relevant excerpt: "The things you think about are decided by your professors, and you follow their lead as you develop your thoughts instead of asking yourself what questions you developed from your reading or what link it might produce with your own background. So you just do your best to chew the cud and digest the material. And if you actually learn something, it is transplanted out of nothing and remains attached to its origin rather than sinking roots or sprouting branches. When study is nothing but rote learning, who doesn’t lose their appetite?"
- knzhou 6y ago
  > I've often read complains in the HN bubble that the Chinese system would be too rote. I've seen both sides. 99% of complaints you read on the internet are written by people who've never been to the country they're complaining about, and whose sum total knowledge consists of a cheap stereotype.
- nelaboras 6y ago
  Sample size n=1 but a friend of mine was in the top 3 of CS in Hong Kong university and thus got to go abroad for a year. He described that back home they had to learn hundreds of specific 'best solutions' by heart and then regurgitate them on the test. He loved that he got actual challenges and got to work independently at the UK university where we met.
chillacy 6y ago
> Fourth, life is dry and boring, you don’t have friends or family, and you can’t sit around every day talking about the meaning of life. With time, you wind up really lonely, which makes you appreciate the vitality of life in China. When you come back, you’re like a bird let out of a cage, and your only urge is to fly. Who wants to study? Too bad. Okay that has to be partially self inflicted. Too many people travel with no attempt to integrate with locals. I will grant that it's not easy, and many Americans fall into the same trap during their study abroad time, but that's perhaps the great allure and challenge is it not?
- bluntfang 6y ago
  Or option B: american racism doesn't stop at blacks.
  - sien 6y ago
    Perhaps, but Asian Americans do better than Caucasian Americans in a raft of measures : https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian-americans/ https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian...
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      There are only two measures there that compare Asian Americans to Caucausian Americans,and both are quite sensitive to being reflective of the high Asian immigration innrceent decades selected for highly educated individuals already qualified for work in highly paid fields, rather than Asians succeeding more from a similar starting point. IOW, they don't do much to cast doubt on racism adversely impacting Asian Americans.
  - jariel 6y ago
    So when's the last time you had someone very foreign, who had difficulties with language and no social context over for beers? Most people don't hate or even loathe foreigners and certainly not Asians, but social circles everywhere tend to be pretty narrow. He may have had some nice students or profs invite him on the occasional thing out of social courtesy and genuine interest, but people really far from one another socially are not going to get tons of 'hang time'. As Uni becomes a little bit more simply 'where you go after high school' and more a social experience, as opposed to being a truly academic experience, I suggest this issue may even be exacerbated. I don't doubt the social isolation is real for people, but I don't think hostile language is where we need to go.
nja4 6y ago
To me, this reads as so much Chinese nationalism. Feels super consistent with Communist propaganda of an indolent West. Also, seems very suspect to criticize a lack of intellectual freedom by comparing it to a system without freedom of information. I also thought that Western education was widely considered much less about rote memorization and more about intellectual creativity and freedom, even to the detriment of western folks' technical skills. Even just the concept of a "liberal education" or a "liberal arts school" is a western concept AFAIK; I do think there is a lot of rote memorization, but I would think this would only be exacerbated in a Chinese institution.
- hootbootscoot 6y ago
  I hear you, but I think that there is a significant portion of the "modern" university system (particularly larger schools or systems) that is merely paying lip-service to these values, particularly at the undergrad level. I had the good fortune of small class sizes and being able to debate professors. (Appeal to authority didn't count lol) I think that some school even prioritize what you mention: St Johns school of the great books (not sure if this is the name) in Santa Fe, for example, makes you learn ancient Greek and Latin. When you learn Geometry, you read Euclid in Latin and argue about his books for weeks on end... It's the opposite of the superficiality the author mentions. There are costs to this, however, and they spend less focal time on the 20th century, when, arguably, many important events and works occurred.
  - hootbootscoot 6y ago
    Sorry, I meant "read Euclid in Greek" not Latin. doh.
powersnail 6y ago
The whole article rings false to me. Although I get that it's Zhang's personal experience, but the reasoning makes zero sense, and it feels like he just wanted to vent. Some of the points seemingly have nothing to do with studying abroad, but the nature of the university he attended, for example, > First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think. This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner, or being in any specific country. It's a university culture, and every university has its own pace of teaching, in China or US. And then, > Of course, it makes no difference if you don’t go > to bookstores in the US, but if you bring this habit > back with you, it means that you don’t go to bookstores > in China Seriously? How hard it is to consciously decide to go to a book store when you are in need of a book? This also seems to imply that China has no good libraries, which is untrue. I'm from a small city in China, and I borrowed so many books from the city library. That was how I got into programming as well, borrowing a book about Turbo Pascal. Personally, I think the biggest difficulty for a Chinese in studying abroad in the US, is the difficulty of being accepted into the circle. You could make friends and acquaintances with Americans, but you're never part of "them". I constantly feel like I'm on the wrong side of a aquarium glass pane, being observed and judged. There are two real choices: 1) pretend to be a white person and be extremely amiable, or 2) fallback to the smaller circle of Chinese people in US.
- chillacy 6y ago
  The essay reads as satirical to me. Especially the ending line: > My sole desire is that when future generations come of age, they will inherit a mature academic tradition, and will not have to travel such long distances and endure these various discomforts.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Sounds like something out of a travelogue by a Victorian gentleman of leisure.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Written in 2008. But that says that in 2008, China does not have a mature academic tradition. That's... I don't quite know what to make of it, but it's an interesting admission.
ecpottinger 6y ago
What would be interesting is a follow-up to see how he feels today after returning and living in China. I bet he find life to be a lot better, yet at the same time suddenly realizes in a conversation with his Chinese friends and family some of the wrong assumptions they also have about the West vs his own experiences.
hootbootscoot 6y ago
Talk about someone projecting their own experiences as universal truths for everyone, LOL ...and then trying to use Heidegger as an excuse for intellectual laziness is pretty silly too. The more languages you know, the more you really understand the true meaning of words in your "own" language. (Certainly with Latinic languages and English, for example.) There's also a point to be crossed at which you can dream in another language and there's a bit of a desert to be crossed before that happens. Overall, it was a challenging and somewhat thought-provoking read, but I feel that 1) the author approached the subject superficially and in a flippant manner 2) the author is young and has much to learn about LIFE on earth, whether it be China, or any of the other 180 something "countries" we have divided our planets human societies into. That said: I've noted that large nationalistic nations (China, the USA, Brasil, Russia...) tend to know less about the outside world and navel-gaze more, whereas smaller nations with many different neighbors (most of the world) tend to be aware of the cultural framing on almost any issue, even if they defer to local customs or beliefs. This is obviously a gross generalization, but a flavor one nevertheless is imparted with due to: 1) A tendency towards being linguistically bound in thought. (I will propose that the author here is dead wrong, Martin Heidegger notwithstanding, and that languages bound thought possibilities by their grammars and biases) 2) A tendency to not have experienced any foreign nationals in rural areas, or certainly none that are deemed to be equal human beings by a significant part of the local society. 3) A tendency to believe the local media and governmental narratives at the cost of being completely un-aware of other narratives, regardless of belief or resistance to such narratives.
- hootbootscoot 6y ago
  I wonder if the author would have enjoyed a different school or town/region instead. We might simply be addressing culture shock, jet-lag, and a lame school, lol
- hootbootscoot 6y ago
  Out of curiousity, what statement did I make to inspire a downvote from someone?
abhayhegde 6y ago
> Fourth, life is dry and boring, you don’t have friends or family, and you can’t sit around every day talking about the meaning of life. I feel OP is projecting himself too much here. It is completely up to how a person mingles with others, in my opinion. As long as the person is not too unapproachable or the groupism of natives is not strongly at play, I think one can make awesome friends and families abroad.
k__ 6y ago
lol If our societies are so shitty, why not let young Chinese students see for themselves? Then they know what they have in China.
Siira 6y ago
(These articles might be politically motivated.)
vymague 6y ago
Sounds like nationalist propaganda. I wonder if he was ordered to write it.
aj7 6y ago
What I was impressed with is the profundity to which he attaches to sitting around and bs’ing with his Chinese buddies. And when we westerners see this, out of the corner of our eye, we think...
- novok 6y ago
  I'd wish they try to do it with us too!
superhuzza 6y ago
Disclaimer: I am not Chinese. I'm a bit dubious about a lot of the other reasons in the article, but one strikes me as very true, perhaps just because I directly observed it. I'm just wrapping up an MSc in the UK. One thing I have noticed in my program is that language is a huge barrier for the Chinese students. Their questions often reveal they are struggling to follow in lectures, they struggle to make others understand their arguments, and they get tasked with less responsibility in group assignments. Furthermore, the extra time needed to read texts, write papers, and generally learn more English comes at the cost of time spent on their actual topic of interest. I can't imagine how demotivating this must be, and generally how much more difficult the program must be as a result. I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of their counterparts in China have more academic/career success as a result of not having language as another burden.
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
The domain name for the web page is kind of interesting in this regard. Just from the domain, I'd expect it to carry pro-China puff pieces at best, outright propaganda at worst.
- tomjakubowski 6y ago
  The site is edited by three Canadian history professors. "This web site is devoted to the subject of intellectual life in contemporary China, and more particularly to the writings of establishment intellectuals. What you will find here are essentially translations of Chinese texts that we consider important, together with discussions of related issues and a number of reference tools that can help those interested to navigate the project." https://www.readingthechinadream.com/about.html https://www.readingthechinadream.com/about.html
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Interesting. I stand corrected.
lokiju 6y ago
classic propaganda
rfreytag 6y ago
>When study is nothing but rote learning, who doesn’t lose their appetite? Interesting that this first criticism is commonly leveled at students from the People's Republic of China. Does the language barrier force students to rote-learn to keep up? I know from personal experience studying overseas that rote-learning was my default mode to try and keep up. Are all the critiques of PRC students for rote-learning when studying in the PRC false? It seems an extraordinary claim give personal and abundant reported experience. >If you are wearing yourself out every day, you naturally embrace the spirit of “minimalism,” in which you do as little as possible, and once you’ve finished something you go to sleep, loathe to take the initiative on your own to explore anything else. Seems language struggles could be blamed for this. >it makes no difference if you don’t go to bookstores in the US, but if you bring this habit back with you, it means that you don’t go to bookstores in China either. The third criticism seems a spurious addition to the next two. > you wind up really lonely, which makes you appreciate the vitality of life in China. When you come back, you’re like a bird let out of a cage, and your only urge is to fly. Who wants to study? There are many places in the PRC even today that has never seen a foreigner. Exposure to foreign ideas and ways is limited even in the cities. The result is a massive culture shock when going overseas. If there is a language barrier then it is going to be hard to connect. The result is the PRC students form small and impenetrable cliques. That has to be a lonely experience. >trying to think in a foreign language is like trying to scratch an itch through your boots This is why a lot of PRC students now study abroad before going to an overseas university to avoid these cultural and language difficulties. If they have difficulty after that then there are other problems. >if you live abroad for a long time, you will miss many theoretically interesting things happening in China There are big changes afoot in the PRC. If the student is unprepared to gain the most from an overseas education then they shouldn't go. Since the U of C was mentioned, the US has been underestimated many times in its past. Time will tell which was the better choice. The seventh criticism makes no sense to me. It seems wrong or, worse, self-effacing in the worst way for a young vital student. > because of various difficulties abroad, you wind up feeling rebellious, and spend your days arguing with foreigners. This engagement is precisely why you go abroad and is a big part of Western thought. Can't say that everything is wrong but the solution is not to pull back but to study outside the PRC with the proper expectations and preparation.
axegon_ 6y ago
I disagree a lot here. I did study abroad and I'd argue that this might have been a one of the best things that has ever happened to me: 1. This is completely false. You have just as much time as you would have had back at home. Yes, you might have more things to worry about being on your own but you can certainly make up for it and learn to make compromises quickly. Expecting to come out fully prepared out of university is plain stupid. In most scenarios you end up with an average amount of theoretical and practical knowledge but you are nowhere before you end up crashing into your first job when you realize that the studying is just beginning. 2. That is highly personal. You either live with the mindset that you need a degree to get a job or take the most out of the situation. If the degree is your primary goal, then yes, you won't have the adequate will and determination to better yourself. I had professors that spent 5 or 6 hours after lectures talking to me and explaining some nitty-gritty details just because they saw I had genuine interest. I never asked them to dedicate any more than a few minutes but on multiple occasions we ended up staying in the hallways way past midnight discussing different topics. 3. I honestly don't get that point. 4. While the friends and family statement is correct and fitting in somewhere new is something that takes forever, regardless of the tons of effort and dedication, if you find peace in being alone, it's a huge advantage. Sooner rather than later I fell in love with digging deeper and deeper and following rabbit holes that most of my peers had no clue about. Eventually I became the second-best student by a fraction of a percent, given that I was studying in a foreign language. 5. Depending on what you are studying, this might be a good thing. My native language has very little in common with the two other languages I've had to learn, other than the fact that they are all European. Their structure is vastly different, two different alphabets, completely different way of constructing sentences and thoughts in general. For software engineering, I feel like this is a brilliant mental exercise. 6. In a vastly globalized world, this seems like a non-issue. If anything it teaches you to look at things from multiple perspectives and take the best out of both worlds. Certain solutions can be applied successfully in completely opposite social and political environments and solve multiple problems in the process. 7. Same as 3, I really don't understand the point the author is trying to make.
travisoneill1 6y ago
I agree with this criticism of US college: > You read really quickly, discuss really quickly, turn in your papers really quickly. The things you think about are decided by your professors, and you follow their lead as you develop your thoughts instead of asking yourself what questions you developed from your reading or what link it might produce with your own background. So you just do your best to chew the cud and digest the material. And if you actually learn something, it is transplanted out of nothing and remains attached to its origin rather than sinking roots or sprouting branches. When study is nothing but rote learning, who doesn’t lose their appetite?
ericls 6y ago
This article is basically someone failed at achieving something and then blame it all to an easy target. America happens to be the easy target of his choice this time.
earthboundkid 6y ago
This essay is in a totally different genre than an HN blog post, so all of the comments here are totally wide of the mark. It's like asking why Thoreau didn't just get a telegraph line back to Boston. We don't use this genre in the US, which reinforces the point he's making. The Analects quote at the beginning is also crucial. All educated Chinese know that quote and ~0% of Americans do: we have radically different cultures, not just superficially different pop cultures. The whole argument is a sly wink in favor of nationalism, but it's not supposed to be read on the square as simple propaganda either.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Is the second (not directly quoted) part of the Analects reference important to understanding the essay?
  - earthboundkid 6y ago
    I think it’s more just that a) having a classical allusion makes you seem erudite in this genre b) it’s clearly part of the shared culture that you get living in China that you could miss by living abroad. The second half where Confucius says he no longer trusts people without observing them probably plays some role (he’s giving his own observations) but I don’t think it’s that important to the whole.
pasabagi 6y ago
It seems a bit strange to view the physical 'traveling abroad' as harmful, when he's so obviously 'traveling abroad' in thought throughout the piece - Heidegger, after all, was not Chinese. It also seems that a lot of what caused the century of humiliation for China was this inward-looking tendency in Chinese culture, a tendency that left them ignorant of western ideas and technology until it was essentially too late. It also seems that a lot of the reinvigoration of China is due to a spirit of openness towards the rest of the world, with western ideas (most obviously marxism) being the driver of a phenomenal amount of change. Not being Chinese, it makes me a bit sad to see China drift the kind of insular, chauvinistic direction it has been going in the last few years. Chinese culture is amazing, but it's at its very best when it's vigorously confronting the outside world.
- thisrod 6y ago
  > it's at its very best when it's vigorously confronting the outside world How so? The examples that spring to my mind—Imperial Japan, the Manchurians, that Genghis bloke—all end very badly for China and its culture.
  - oblio 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_treasure_voyages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_treasure_voyages
alexashka 6y ago
I feel like a lot of people commenting here don't understand that in order to get a high rank title in China, he had to go and study in the West, against his will. So naturally, he resisted and resented this fate, not unlike many of my friends resented having to finish University and pass classes they had no interest in. The points he makes, I did not find to be insightful or interesting. They're down to earth, simple, human observations, not unlike the stories I hear from someone who goes on vacation. At least this guy didn't spend most of his time talking about food :)
Dahoon 6y ago
Half of this thread should be flagged for racism.
president 6y ago
Written by someone who travels to another country with a closed mind and then complains that life there is not like home.
atdt 6y ago
I must be tone-deaf, because I picked up none of the sinister overtones that other commenters on this thread are detecting. The text I read was amusing and delightful, and I associate it with a genre of writing that takes a bit of common wisdom (studying abroad is good for you) and inverts it. It reminded me of Erasmus's In Praise of Folly. I am sadly ignorant of Chinese literature, but I think the theme is universal. Looking at the world when you are standing on your head is simultaneously amusing and insightful.
- knzhou 6y ago
  I agree, and I think the overwhelmingly negative response here perfectly illustrates the post's point. The author is thoughtful and has great, but not perfect English. Because he's foreign, everybody concludes that it's a sinister work of propaganda, and attributes all manner of horrible personality traits to the author on the basis of the tiniest of mistakes. It's absolutely predictable. I sincerely hope I won't ever have to endure the displeasure of meeting any of these HN commenters in person.
ajkdhcb2 6y ago
[authors' social credit score rises by x points] If only the CCP would make it possible to take anything written about these topics at face value.
f00zz 6y ago
This was a fun read. I totally feel what the guy is saying about thinking in a different language, my brain turns to mush when I'm trying to communicate in English. And I have it easy; compared to Chinese, all European languages are basically the same.
socrates1998 6y ago
Didn't sound like he really wanted to study in America. That's fine, but if you don't have to do something, then it's harder to get value from it. I studied abroad because I REALLY wanted to. I was immensely looking forward to traveling, experiencing new customs, learning new ways of thinking and even learning more than the basics of the language. It was an experience I will value forever. I think a big difference is that when Americans or Europeans study abroad, they are looking for an experience, when Chinese students (if this guy is to be believed) are looking to pad their resumes. Same goes for college. If you go to college so you can put it on your resume, then you will hate it. If you go to college looking to learn, make friends and acquire skills, then it will be fantastic.
justicezyx 6y ago
The source website [1] of the author is more interesting. It can be translated into "neo-legalism", a reference to the "fa jia (legalism)" in the early Chinese history. Fa jia is a school of thoughts that has a color of modern law & rule-based society system, but it is truly a top-down feudalism system that put its center around the legitimacy of the imperial court. It does not end here though. What they meant by the neo-legalism in the website, is actually centered a round a blended Taoism with a shell of a codified rules & laws in the legalism methodology. What historically is called "内圣外王", roughly "holds a saint-like attitude internally, but sternly executes the laws like a master". The website claims that the capticalism is going to be replaced by such a reinvented system from the ancient tradition. The whole thing has a strong flare of the historically-bestowed self-righteousness of the conventional Chinese scholar, as often recognized by western scholars on China study. [1] http://www.xinfajia.net/ http://www.xinfajia.net/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)
quantum_state 6y ago
Studying abroad, like any other endeavors, is for the willing and prepared ... not for the ones who may want to do it for the sake of doing it. Living or traveling to any new places would enrich oneself ...
anm89 6y ago
I think a more appropriate title would be "The harm of studying abroad in the US for Chinese students"
kyawzazaw 6y ago
As an international student in the US, I pretty much disagree with all of what the author is saying.
aaron695 6y ago
China needs to start pulling it's students home permanently. Not saying the author wrote it for that purpose, but I'm sure it's being pushed atm for that reason.

85 points by jeffreyrogers 6y ago

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. Especially points 4 and 5 - this is when you learn to get out of comfort zone!

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Could just be a resume building puff piece to help him rise in the party machinery.
- aj7 6y ago
  Didn’t think of that. Well said.
- free_rms 6y ago
  Written in 2008, though. Hu Jintao was in charge, China was hosting the Olympics, the posture was generally more open to the West. Seems a lot more like a cranky guy than political-favor-currying.
- wonnage 6y ago
  This is an exasperating bit of casual racism I see all the time. A Chinese person has said something you disagree with, they must have no personal agency, they must be trying to curry favor with the government! the CPC is not Santa Claus, ffs
  - buzzkillington 6y ago
    Are you suggesting that the CPC is ingrained in the DNA of all Chinese? I fail to see how criticizing a political system is racist otherwise.
    - dang 6y ago
      That's obviously not what the parent comment was saying. Would you please stop taking HN threads further into nationalistic, ideological, or political, or any, flamewar? We ban accounts that do this, you've done it repeatedly, and we've asked you already to stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - buzzkillington 6y ago
        Kind of funny you're not banning any of the spam CPC accounts here promoting nationalistic, ideological, and political flames the second you point out the CPC is the only country in the world running actual concentration camps for minorities.
        dang 6y ago
        People accuse us of secretly siding with their enemies when they get moderated. That's cheap and frankly rather silly. The opposite side makes the opposite accusations. Re "spam CPC accounts", concoctions like that are also a cheap-and-rather-silly thing that internet users come up with when they don't like what other internet users say. It's common, poisonous, and inevitably so vacuous that we have a site rule against it- see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. If you had evidence of abuse, you should be emailing it to hn@ycombinator.com so we can look at the actual data. Comments expressing views that go against your own views is not evidence of abuse, it's merely evidence that divisive topics are divisive, which we all know already.
- Dahoon 6y ago
  Chinese person saying something you don't believe yourself? Must be a brainwashed party drone! Sigh, the racism is running wild on HN too. It really is becoming the new Reddit.
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    You seem to have glossed over all the self-satisfied puffery about lazy Westerners. Throw in a quote from the Classics, doubleplusgood. What do you think is the career trajectory for a lawyer in China?
    - dang 6y ago
      Please do not use HN for nationalistic or ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - president 6y ago
    Since when is making a plausible quip "racism"? It is common knowledge that public statements made by Chinese citizens are scrutinized by the government and are effectively "filtered". People like you have completely diluted the meaning of the word.
    - wonnage 6y ago
      You are asserting that no public statement by a Chinese person can be trusted, how is that not racist
      - dang 6y ago
        "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - dang 6y ago
      We've asked you multiple times to stop doing nationalistic flamewar on HN. This comment crosses into personal attack as well. Moreover, it looks like you've been using HN primarily for ideological or political battle. We ban accounts that do these things. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this.

ipnon 6y ago

His point on the nature of Western style debate and argument rings true.

_aleph2c_ 6y ago

If what he says is true, it also means that the creative thinking at the graduate level of many American STEM degrees has been limited. My friends who are professors in American Universities tell me that in a lot of their courses, there isn't an American student in their whole class; their classes are mostly Chinese. So if their whole group has gone through a hazing-education-process, conducted in a foreign language, they will have suffered the kind of spiritual harm described by the author. If they stay in the US to do their graduate work, chances are they won't be thinking out of the box.

nnoitra 6y ago
That's because there's very little incentive for doing a Phd so immigrants do it so it helps their immigration status. It would take someone to be insanely in love in CS to forfeit 300K or so compensation for a Phd.

blaser-waffle 6y ago

> The text translated here, written in 2008, has nothing to do with Zhang’s academic work, but instead reflects changing attitudes among younger Chinese intellectuals concerning the value of Western ideas and the experience of studying abroad. > Zhang is surely right that doing an advanced degree in a foreign language is a challenge involving at times a loss of autonomy and a loss of status. More interesting is the overall tone of the text, which comes close to saying that the experience is a waste of time. This is not only because study abroad involves rote learning of someone else’s knowledge, but because China is the place to be. As Zhang puts it: > “If you live abroad for a long time, you will miss many theoretically interesting things happening in China. Society in the West has been settled for hundreds of years, and not that much that is really new occurs. But China is entering a new era, full of potential.” ... Valid points, for sure, but not everyone is reaping that new era full of potential. China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections, but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions. Plus the great explosion of growth of China is now slowing down. Still many developments to come, for sure, but those may not play out in ways we expect. Also think it's hilarious that he's bashing the U of C's "rote learning" when that's a huge part of China's entrance exams, or how foreign Uni's will limit your thought -- cuz the CCP tells Tsinghua "teach what you want", right?

akfanta 6y ago
> China is a great place to be if you've got the right connections This might be true for the majority of China, but for big cities like Shanghai, Beijing and Shenzhen, no, connections mean far less even comparing to western world. > but no so great if you're gay, muslim, tibetan, or like to have opinions. Do you get this from reading western media or did you actually go there and talk to those actual human beings? I can't speak for everywhere, but being an ethnic minority comes with tons of perks in China. For ethnic minorities, one child policy never applied to them, the kids get extra points during high school/university entrance exams, my Mongolian roommate even got extra financial support due to his ethnicity. People would fabricate document to gain minority status because that gives their kids an edge in almost everywhere. Growing up, as a Han Chinese, I always feel this is unfair and absurd. As for religions, again I can't speak for Xinjiang itself, but from my experience in east coast, no one cares what religion you believe in. It's only an issue when you try to challenge the government with it. You can find mosque and churches in most cities. And gay? Believe or not, I know it sounds absurd, but being gay is sort of a hip thing among the youngsters. The will obviously face repulsions from older generations, but this rings true all around the world. Bottom line is, the general public does not actively persecute the LGBT group, nor do they care. The only thing that would bring you trouble is having an opinion against the government. I am not saying this is not a big issue, but stop pretending that the country is constantly oppressing everyone.

vorpalhex 6y ago

From my reading of this, this is just someone who was very isolated due in part to cultural/language barriers. I would be curious if someone who had the same experiences but was less isolated and had social nets would have a very different take. > You sing the praises of whatever it is that your enemy opposes, and you oppose whatever your enemy praises. That screams like someone who feels pushed out and isolated from their immediate society (in this case, the foreign culture they were studying in).

blackbear_ 6y ago
I agree with your reading, it feels like most of his issues were due to very different culture and language. As an European who attended university in four European countries I can attest how enriching and fulfilling those years have been, and how much I have grown. I would strongly recommend studying abroad to anybody who has the chance. Even as an introvert it was easy to make friends.
- schwarzmx 6y ago
  To me it comes down to the language barrier. Not having a good command of English (or the local language) hinders your ability to integrate with the locals. Learning English for a person from a Western country is way easier than for a Chinese person.
  - xtracto 6y ago
    From my experience in the UK it was not. I spoke enough english to write and defend a PHD thesis. Yet I could never "click" with British society... even while being the "friendly mexican" I was just that... and i did want to get more "assimilated " by the culture. It's a cultural thing, some cultures are more open and welcoming than others.
dawg- 6y ago
>I would be curious if someone who had the same experiences but was less isolated and had social nets would have a very different take. That's me, and I totally have a different take. I studied abroad as a foreign language major - but only after three full years of studying the language and culture of the country I was visiting. It was an enriching experience and I felt pretty comfortable navigating the country socially and professionally. Study abroad was a requirement for me to graduate. I did the longer trip after a previous two week trip to the same place. I met via skype with my professor back in the US weekly for an independent study course, and that gave me the chance to reflect and make sense of my experiences with a trusted mentor (who was a native of the country herself). The professor even dropped by to visit me in person during her summer trip to the country. I think all of these things factored into making it an amazing experience and time of growth, as opposed to an isolating and depressing experience. Even with all that support and background knowledge I still dealt with my fair share of culture shock, home sickness, and isolation - all of which are important parts of the learning experience, in appropriate doses. But without the support system and preparation I had, I would imagine that the experience could have been very negative. Study abroad is an incredible and enriching experience - but it takes a lot more resources than just buying a college kid a plane ticket to another country and sending them on their way. Of course that can be useful for a certain adventurous types as well. But institutionally, study abroad takes deliberate planning and support to make it meaningful for everybody who participates. Otherwise it can surely be just as bad as this author makes it out to be.

rfreytag 6y ago

Archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20200624180614/https://www.readingthechinadream.com/zhang-yongle-the-harm-of-studying-abroad.html https://web.archive.org/web/20200624180614/https://www.readi...

emiliobumachar 6y ago

Very interesting to hear a Chinese person complain about American higher education as too rote, as I've often read complains in the HN bubble that the Chinese system would be too rote. Perhaps things look too rote from either side if you're missing the culture-specific subtlety? Perhaps things are too rote on both sides but it's only noticed by those from a different background? Relevant excerpt: "The things you think about are decided by your professors, and you follow their lead as you develop your thoughts instead of asking yourself what questions you developed from your reading or what link it might produce with your own background. So you just do your best to chew the cud and digest the material. And if you actually learn something, it is transplanted out of nothing and remains attached to its origin rather than sinking roots or sprouting branches. When study is nothing but rote learning, who doesn’t lose their appetite?"

knzhou 6y ago
> I've often read complains in the HN bubble that the Chinese system would be too rote. I've seen both sides. 99% of complaints you read on the internet are written by people who've never been to the country they're complaining about, and whose sum total knowledge consists of a cheap stereotype.
nelaboras 6y ago
Sample size n=1 but a friend of mine was in the top 3 of CS in Hong Kong university and thus got to go abroad for a year. He described that back home they had to learn hundreds of specific 'best solutions' by heart and then regurgitate them on the test. He loved that he got actual challenges and got to work independently at the UK university where we met.

chillacy 6y ago

> Fourth, life is dry and boring, you don’t have friends or family, and you can’t sit around every day talking about the meaning of life. With time, you wind up really lonely, which makes you appreciate the vitality of life in China. When you come back, you’re like a bird let out of a cage, and your only urge is to fly. Who wants to study? Too bad. Okay that has to be partially self inflicted. Too many people travel with no attempt to integrate with locals. I will grant that it's not easy, and many Americans fall into the same trap during their study abroad time, but that's perhaps the great allure and challenge is it not?

bluntfang 6y ago
Or option B: american racism doesn't stop at blacks.
- sien 6y ago
  Perhaps, but Asian Americans do better than Caucasian Americans in a raft of measures : https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian-americans/ https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian...
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    There are only two measures there that compare Asian Americans to Caucausian Americans,and both are quite sensitive to being reflective of the high Asian immigration innrceent decades selected for highly educated individuals already qualified for work in highly paid fields, rather than Asians succeeding more from a similar starting point. IOW, they don't do much to cast doubt on racism adversely impacting Asian Americans.
- jariel 6y ago
  So when's the last time you had someone very foreign, who had difficulties with language and no social context over for beers? Most people don't hate or even loathe foreigners and certainly not Asians, but social circles everywhere tend to be pretty narrow. He may have had some nice students or profs invite him on the occasional thing out of social courtesy and genuine interest, but people really far from one another socially are not going to get tons of 'hang time'. As Uni becomes a little bit more simply 'where you go after high school' and more a social experience, as opposed to being a truly academic experience, I suggest this issue may even be exacerbated. I don't doubt the social isolation is real for people, but I don't think hostile language is where we need to go.

nja4 6y ago

To me, this reads as so much Chinese nationalism. Feels super consistent with Communist propaganda of an indolent West. Also, seems very suspect to criticize a lack of intellectual freedom by comparing it to a system without freedom of information. I also thought that Western education was widely considered much less about rote memorization and more about intellectual creativity and freedom, even to the detriment of western folks' technical skills. Even just the concept of a "liberal education" or a "liberal arts school" is a western concept AFAIK; I do think there is a lot of rote memorization, but I would think this would only be exacerbated in a Chinese institution.

hootbootscoot 6y ago
I hear you, but I think that there is a significant portion of the "modern" university system (particularly larger schools or systems) that is merely paying lip-service to these values, particularly at the undergrad level. I had the good fortune of small class sizes and being able to debate professors. (Appeal to authority didn't count lol) I think that some school even prioritize what you mention: St Johns school of the great books (not sure if this is the name) in Santa Fe, for example, makes you learn ancient Greek and Latin. When you learn Geometry, you read Euclid in Latin and argue about his books for weeks on end... It's the opposite of the superficiality the author mentions. There are costs to this, however, and they spend less focal time on the 20th century, when, arguably, many important events and works occurred.
- hootbootscoot 6y ago
  Sorry, I meant "read Euclid in Greek" not Latin. doh.

powersnail 6y ago

The whole article rings false to me. Although I get that it's Zhang's personal experience, but the reasoning makes zero sense, and it feels like he just wanted to vent. Some of the points seemingly have nothing to do with studying abroad, but the nature of the university he attended, for example, > First, you have no time. You read a lot but there’s no time to think. This is has nothing to do with being a foreigner, or being in any specific country. It's a university culture, and every university has its own pace of teaching, in China or US. And then, > Of course, it makes no difference if you don’t go > to bookstores in the US, but if you bring this habit > back with you, it means that you don’t go to bookstores > in China Seriously? How hard it is to consciously decide to go to a book store when you are in need of a book? This also seems to imply that China has no good libraries, which is untrue. I'm from a small city in China, and I borrowed so many books from the city library. That was how I got into programming as well, borrowing a book about Turbo Pascal. Personally, I think the biggest difficulty for a Chinese in studying abroad in the US, is the difficulty of being accepted into the circle. You could make friends and acquaintances with Americans, but you're never part of "them". I constantly feel like I'm on the wrong side of a aquarium glass pane, being observed and judged. There are two real choices: 1) pretend to be a white person and be extremely amiable, or 2) fallback to the smaller circle of Chinese people in US.

chillacy 6y ago
The essay reads as satirical to me. Especially the ending line: > My sole desire is that when future generations come of age, they will inherit a mature academic tradition, and will not have to travel such long distances and endure these various discomforts.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Sounds like something out of a travelogue by a Victorian gentleman of leisure.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Written in 2008. But that says that in 2008, China does not have a mature academic tradition. That's... I don't quite know what to make of it, but it's an interesting admission.

ecpottinger 6y ago

What would be interesting is a follow-up to see how he feels today after returning and living in China. I bet he find life to be a lot better, yet at the same time suddenly realizes in a conversation with his Chinese friends and family some of the wrong assumptions they also have about the West vs his own experiences.

hootbootscoot 6y ago

Talk about someone projecting their own experiences as universal truths for everyone, LOL ...and then trying to use Heidegger as an excuse for intellectual laziness is pretty silly too. The more languages you know, the more you really understand the true meaning of words in your "own" language. (Certainly with Latinic languages and English, for example.) There's also a point to be crossed at which you can dream in another language and there's a bit of a desert to be crossed before that happens. Overall, it was a challenging and somewhat thought-provoking read, but I feel that 1) the author approached the subject superficially and in a flippant manner 2) the author is young and has much to learn about LIFE on earth, whether it be China, or any of the other 180 something "countries" we have divided our planets human societies into. That said: I've noted that large nationalistic nations (China, the USA, Brasil, Russia...) tend to know less about the outside world and navel-gaze more, whereas smaller nations with many different neighbors (most of the world) tend to be aware of the cultural framing on almost any issue, even if they defer to local customs or beliefs. This is obviously a gross generalization, but a flavor one nevertheless is imparted with due to: 1) A tendency towards being linguistically bound in thought. (I will propose that the author here is dead wrong, Martin Heidegger notwithstanding, and that languages bound thought possibilities by their grammars and biases) 2) A tendency to not have experienced any foreign nationals in rural areas, or certainly none that are deemed to be equal human beings by a significant part of the local society. 3) A tendency to believe the local media and governmental narratives at the cost of being completely un-aware of other narratives, regardless of belief or resistance to such narratives.

hootbootscoot 6y ago
I wonder if the author would have enjoyed a different school or town/region instead. We might simply be addressing culture shock, jet-lag, and a lame school, lol
hootbootscoot 6y ago
Out of curiousity, what statement did I make to inspire a downvote from someone?

abhayhegde 6y ago

> Fourth, life is dry and boring, you don’t have friends or family, and you can’t sit around every day talking about the meaning of life. I feel OP is projecting himself too much here. It is completely up to how a person mingles with others, in my opinion. As long as the person is not too unapproachable or the groupism of natives is not strongly at play, I think one can make awesome friends and families abroad.

k__ 6y ago

lol If our societies are so shitty, why not let young Chinese students see for themselves? Then they know what they have in China.

Siira 6y ago

(These articles might be politically motivated.)

vymague 6y ago

Sounds like nationalist propaganda. I wonder if he was ordered to write it.

aj7 6y ago

What I was impressed with is the profundity to which he attaches to sitting around and bs’ing with his Chinese buddies. And when we westerners see this, out of the corner of our eye, we think...

novok 6y ago
I'd wish they try to do it with us too!

superhuzza 6y ago

Disclaimer: I am not Chinese. I'm a bit dubious about a lot of the other reasons in the article, but one strikes me as very true, perhaps just because I directly observed it. I'm just wrapping up an MSc in the UK. One thing I have noticed in my program is that language is a huge barrier for the Chinese students. Their questions often reveal they are struggling to follow in lectures, they struggle to make others understand their arguments, and they get tasked with less responsibility in group assignments. Furthermore, the extra time needed to read texts, write papers, and generally learn more English comes at the cost of time spent on their actual topic of interest. I can't imagine how demotivating this must be, and generally how much more difficult the program must be as a result. I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of their counterparts in China have more academic/career success as a result of not having language as another burden.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

The domain name for the web page is kind of interesting in this regard. Just from the domain, I'd expect it to carry pro-China puff pieces at best, outright propaganda at worst.

tomjakubowski 6y ago
The site is edited by three Canadian history professors. "This web site is devoted to the subject of intellectual life in contemporary China, and more particularly to the writings of establishment intellectuals. What you will find here are essentially translations of Chinese texts that we consider important, together with discussions of related issues and a number of reference tools that can help those interested to navigate the project." https://www.readingthechinadream.com/about.html https://www.readingthechinadream.com/about.html
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Interesting. I stand corrected.

lokiju 6y ago

classic propaganda

rfreytag 6y ago

>When study is nothing but rote learning, who doesn’t lose their appetite? Interesting that this first criticism is commonly leveled at students from the People's Republic of China. Does the language barrier force students to rote-learn to keep up? I know from personal experience studying overseas that rote-learning was my default mode to try and keep up. Are all the critiques of PRC students for rote-learning when studying in the PRC false? It seems an extraordinary claim give personal and abundant reported experience. >If you are wearing yourself out every day, you naturally embrace the spirit of “minimalism,” in which you do as little as possible, and once you’ve finished something you go to sleep, loathe to take the initiative on your own to explore anything else. Seems language struggles could be blamed for this. >it makes no difference if you don’t go to bookstores in the US, but if you bring this habit back with you, it means that you don’t go to bookstores in China either. The third criticism seems a spurious addition to the next two. > you wind up really lonely, which makes you appreciate the vitality of life in China. When you come back, you’re like a bird let out of a cage, and your only urge is to fly. Who wants to study? There are many places in the PRC even today that has never seen a foreigner. Exposure to foreign ideas and ways is limited even in the cities. The result is a massive culture shock when going overseas. If there is a language barrier then it is going to be hard to connect. The result is the PRC students form small and impenetrable cliques. That has to be a lonely experience. >trying to think in a foreign language is like trying to scratch an itch through your boots This is why a lot of PRC students now study abroad before going to an overseas university to avoid these cultural and language difficulties. If they have difficulty after that then there are other problems. >if you live abroad for a long time, you will miss many theoretically interesting things happening in China There are big changes afoot in the PRC. If the student is unprepared to gain the most from an overseas education then they shouldn't go. Since the U of C was mentioned, the US has been underestimated many times in its past. Time will tell which was the better choice. The seventh criticism makes no sense to me. It seems wrong or, worse, self-effacing in the worst way for a young vital student. > because of various difficulties abroad, you wind up feeling rebellious, and spend your days arguing with foreigners. This engagement is precisely why you go abroad and is a big part of Western thought. Can't say that everything is wrong but the solution is not to pull back but to study outside the PRC with the proper expectations and preparation.

axegon_ 6y ago

I disagree a lot here. I did study abroad and I'd argue that this might have been a one of the best things that has ever happened to me: 1. This is completely false. You have just as much time as you would have had back at home. Yes, you might have more things to worry about being on your own but you can certainly make up for it and learn to make compromises quickly. Expecting to come out fully prepared out of university is plain stupid. In most scenarios you end up with an average amount of theoretical and practical knowledge but you are nowhere before you end up crashing into your first job when you realize that the studying is just beginning. 2. That is highly personal. You either live with the mindset that you need a degree to get a job or take the most out of the situation. If the degree is your primary goal, then yes, you won't have the adequate will and determination to better yourself. I had professors that spent 5 or 6 hours after lectures talking to me and explaining some nitty-gritty details just because they saw I had genuine interest. I never asked them to dedicate any more than a few minutes but on multiple occasions we ended up staying in the hallways way past midnight discussing different topics. 3. I honestly don't get that point. 4. While the friends and family statement is correct and fitting in somewhere new is something that takes forever, regardless of the tons of effort and dedication, if you find peace in being alone, it's a huge advantage. Sooner rather than later I fell in love with digging deeper and deeper and following rabbit holes that most of my peers had no clue about. Eventually I became the second-best student by a fraction of a percent, given that I was studying in a foreign language. 5. Depending on what you are studying, this might be a good thing. My native language has very little in common with the two other languages I've had to learn, other than the fact that they are all European. Their structure is vastly different, two different alphabets, completely different way of constructing sentences and thoughts in general. For software engineering, I feel like this is a brilliant mental exercise. 6. In a vastly globalized world, this seems like a non-issue. If anything it teaches you to look at things from multiple perspectives and take the best out of both worlds. Certain solutions can be applied successfully in completely opposite social and political environments and solve multiple problems in the process. 7. Same as 3, I really don't understand the point the author is trying to make.

travisoneill1 6y ago

I agree with this criticism of US college: > You read really quickly, discuss really quickly, turn in your papers really quickly. The things you think about are decided by your professors, and you follow their lead as you develop your thoughts instead of asking yourself what questions you developed from your reading or what link it might produce with your own background. So you just do your best to chew the cud and digest the material. And if you actually learn something, it is transplanted out of nothing and remains attached to its origin rather than sinking roots or sprouting branches. When study is nothing but rote learning, who doesn’t lose their appetite?

ericls 6y ago

This article is basically someone failed at achieving something and then blame it all to an easy target. America happens to be the easy target of his choice this time.

earthboundkid 6y ago

This essay is in a totally different genre than an HN blog post, so all of the comments here are totally wide of the mark. It's like asking why Thoreau didn't just get a telegraph line back to Boston. We don't use this genre in the US, which reinforces the point he's making. The Analects quote at the beginning is also crucial. All educated Chinese know that quote and ~0% of Americans do: we have radically different cultures, not just superficially different pop cultures. The whole argument is a sly wink in favor of nationalism, but it's not supposed to be read on the square as simple propaganda either.

082349872349872 6y ago
Is the second (not directly quoted) part of the Analects reference important to understanding the essay?
- earthboundkid 6y ago
  I think it’s more just that a) having a classical allusion makes you seem erudite in this genre b) it’s clearly part of the shared culture that you get living in China that you could miss by living abroad. The second half where Confucius says he no longer trusts people without observing them probably plays some role (he’s giving his own observations) but I don’t think it’s that important to the whole.

pasabagi 6y ago

It seems a bit strange to view the physical 'traveling abroad' as harmful, when he's so obviously 'traveling abroad' in thought throughout the piece - Heidegger, after all, was not Chinese. It also seems that a lot of what caused the century of humiliation for China was this inward-looking tendency in Chinese culture, a tendency that left them ignorant of western ideas and technology until it was essentially too late. It also seems that a lot of the reinvigoration of China is due to a spirit of openness towards the rest of the world, with western ideas (most obviously marxism) being the driver of a phenomenal amount of change. Not being Chinese, it makes me a bit sad to see China drift the kind of insular, chauvinistic direction it has been going in the last few years. Chinese culture is amazing, but it's at its very best when it's vigorously confronting the outside world.

thisrod 6y ago
> it's at its very best when it's vigorously confronting the outside world How so? The examples that spring to my mind—Imperial Japan, the Manchurians, that Genghis bloke—all end very badly for China and its culture.
- oblio 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_treasure_voyages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_treasure_voyages

alexashka 6y ago

I feel like a lot of people commenting here don't understand that in order to get a high rank title in China, he had to go and study in the West, against his will. So naturally, he resisted and resented this fate, not unlike many of my friends resented having to finish University and pass classes they had no interest in. The points he makes, I did not find to be insightful or interesting. They're down to earth, simple, human observations, not unlike the stories I hear from someone who goes on vacation. At least this guy didn't spend most of his time talking about food :)

Dahoon 6y ago

Half of this thread should be flagged for racism.

president 6y ago

Written by someone who travels to another country with a closed mind and then complains that life there is not like home.

atdt 6y ago

I must be tone-deaf, because I picked up none of the sinister overtones that other commenters on this thread are detecting. The text I read was amusing and delightful, and I associate it with a genre of writing that takes a bit of common wisdom (studying abroad is good for you) and inverts it. It reminded me of Erasmus's In Praise of Folly. I am sadly ignorant of Chinese literature, but I think the theme is universal. Looking at the world when you are standing on your head is simultaneously amusing and insightful.

knzhou 6y ago
I agree, and I think the overwhelmingly negative response here perfectly illustrates the post's point. The author is thoughtful and has great, but not perfect English. Because he's foreign, everybody concludes that it's a sinister work of propaganda, and attributes all manner of horrible personality traits to the author on the basis of the tiniest of mistakes. It's absolutely predictable. I sincerely hope I won't ever have to endure the displeasure of meeting any of these HN commenters in person.

ajkdhcb2 6y ago

[authors' social credit score rises by x points] If only the CCP would make it possible to take anything written about these topics at face value.

f00zz 6y ago

This was a fun read. I totally feel what the guy is saying about thinking in a different language, my brain turns to mush when I'm trying to communicate in English. And I have it easy; compared to Chinese, all European languages are basically the same.

socrates1998 6y ago

Didn't sound like he really wanted to study in America. That's fine, but if you don't have to do something, then it's harder to get value from it. I studied abroad because I REALLY wanted to. I was immensely looking forward to traveling, experiencing new customs, learning new ways of thinking and even learning more than the basics of the language. It was an experience I will value forever. I think a big difference is that when Americans or Europeans study abroad, they are looking for an experience, when Chinese students (if this guy is to be believed) are looking to pad their resumes. Same goes for college. If you go to college so you can put it on your resume, then you will hate it. If you go to college looking to learn, make friends and acquire skills, then it will be fantastic.

justicezyx 6y ago

The source website [1] of the author is more interesting. It can be translated into "neo-legalism", a reference to the "fa jia (legalism)" in the early Chinese history. Fa jia is a school of thoughts that has a color of modern law & rule-based society system, but it is truly a top-down feudalism system that put its center around the legitimacy of the imperial court. It does not end here though. What they meant by the neo-legalism in the website, is actually centered a round a blended Taoism with a shell of a codified rules & laws in the legalism methodology. What historically is called "内圣外王", roughly "holds a saint-like attitude internally, but sternly executes the laws like a master". The website claims that the capticalism is going to be replaced by such a reinvented system from the ancient tradition. The whole thing has a strong flare of the historically-bestowed self-righteousness of the conventional Chinese scholar, as often recognized by western scholars on China study. [1] http://www.xinfajia.net/ http://www.xinfajia.net/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)

quantum_state 6y ago

Studying abroad, like any other endeavors, is for the willing and prepared ... not for the ones who may want to do it for the sake of doing it. Living or traveling to any new places would enrich oneself ...

anm89 6y ago

I think a more appropriate title would be "The harm of studying abroad in the US for Chinese students"

kyawzazaw 6y ago

As an international student in the US, I pretty much disagree with all of what the author is saying.

aaron695 6y ago

China needs to start pulling it's students home permanently. Not saying the author wrote it for that purpose, but I'm sure it's being pushed atm for that reason.