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I don't think it's unreasonable to define the upper class as the group who wields the most political power. Use whatever word you want, "overlord", "elite", "ol

I don't think it's unreasonable to define the upper class as the group who wields the most political power. Use whatever word you want, "overlord", "elite", "oligarch", it doesn't matter. You seem to be playing semantic word games to avoid addressing my central point.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ceejayoz 6y ago
I'm entirely comfortable with noting there's a special category of super-rich, mega-wealthy, upper-upper class, top 0.1%, whatever you want to call it. Calling someone with $23M net worth "upper middle" class remains absurd.
brokensegue 6y ago
you can't use a non-standard definition of a word and then complain others are playing word games. you seem to think all that matters is inequality in political power but I think inequality in, say, quality of life, protection under the law or healthcare are also important and those exist well below the 0.01% (and in non-wealth dimensions). Also, I'm nowhere near the top 0.01% but I do donate a good amount to political campaigns and I regularly get personal calls from congress people (presumably expecting more money). I don't think people in the bottom 50% get such calls.
- programmarchy 6y ago
  Wikipedia's definition includes those who "wield the most political power", so I don't think it's non-standard, per se. Although, I have complained elsewhere in this thread that the language we use to describe class and power obscures the existence of "elites" who hold the most influence. Because elite power is hidden, it becomes unaccountable. You can scapegoat the "upper class" asshole with a Lamborghini and infinity pool, but that's obscuring the massive influence of figures like the Koch Brothers and Sheldon Adelson. I completely agree with you that protection under the law, healthcare, etc, are important and should be rectified. But the people who are ultimately deciding that are the ultra wealthy elites [1]. So taxing multi-millionaires is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, rather than addressing inequality in a meaningful way. To do this, elite power must be held accountable. To be held accountable, it must be seen, and not made invisible by "word games". [1] https://journalistsresource.org/studies/politics/finance-lobbying/the-influence-of-elites-interest-groups-and-average-voters-on-american-politics/ https://journalistsresource.org/studies/politics/finance-lob...
  - brokensegue 6y ago
    according to gallup polling between 1-3% of people self-identify as upper class. no matter your definition that's gonna include people with merely $20MM in wealth. and i'll add that $20MM definitely gets you regular lunch with congresspeople and maybe even a ride on airforce one (I know someone who donated enough to Trump to get this and isn't a billionaire).
    - programmarchy 6y ago
      Still won’t address my point. Compared with what the elites are getting, a ride on air force one is a pat on the head. Get a clue.
      - dang 6y ago
        Please don't do tedious flamewars on HN, and especially please don't cross into personal attack. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
oh_sigh 6y ago
If you want people to address your point, don't use ideolectic definitions of fairly well defined terms.
- programmarchy 6y ago
  Well, it's not a well defined term, that's part of the problem. I think it's worth the effort to challenge the language used to describe class and power, though, because the terminology omits the existence of the elite. I've addressed that elsewhere in the thread so won't rehash it again here, but it has revealed to me some of the weird psychological barriers in place preventing the rehabilitation of the language we use. For one, the middle doesn't want admit to themselves how far they truly are from actual power and prefer to think of themselves as high or near-high. Second, the shear exponential scale of the power disparity between the middle and high is hard to comprehend.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    I encourage you to continue your crusade and rewrite the wikipedia definition of middle class then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ceejayoz 6y ago

I'm entirely comfortable with noting there's a special category of super-rich, mega-wealthy, upper-upper class, top 0.1%, whatever you want to call it. Calling someone with $23M net worth "upper middle" class remains absurd.

brokensegue 6y ago

you can't use a non-standard definition of a word and then complain others are playing word games. you seem to think all that matters is inequality in political power but I think inequality in, say, quality of life, protection under the law or healthcare are also important and those exist well below the 0.01% (and in non-wealth dimensions). Also, I'm nowhere near the top 0.01% but I do donate a good amount to political campaigns and I regularly get personal calls from congress people (presumably expecting more money). I don't think people in the bottom 50% get such calls.

programmarchy 6y ago
Wikipedia's definition includes those who "wield the most political power", so I don't think it's non-standard, per se. Although, I have complained elsewhere in this thread that the language we use to describe class and power obscures the existence of "elites" who hold the most influence. Because elite power is hidden, it becomes unaccountable. You can scapegoat the "upper class" asshole with a Lamborghini and infinity pool, but that's obscuring the massive influence of figures like the Koch Brothers and Sheldon Adelson. I completely agree with you that protection under the law, healthcare, etc, are important and should be rectified. But the people who are ultimately deciding that are the ultra wealthy elites [1]. So taxing multi-millionaires is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, rather than addressing inequality in a meaningful way. To do this, elite power must be held accountable. To be held accountable, it must be seen, and not made invisible by "word games". [1] https://journalistsresource.org/studies/politics/finance-lobbying/the-influence-of-elites-interest-groups-and-average-voters-on-american-politics/ https://journalistsresource.org/studies/politics/finance-lob...
- brokensegue 6y ago
  according to gallup polling between 1-3% of people self-identify as upper class. no matter your definition that's gonna include people with merely $20MM in wealth. and i'll add that $20MM definitely gets you regular lunch with congresspeople and maybe even a ride on airforce one (I know someone who donated enough to Trump to get this and isn't a billionaire).
  - programmarchy 6y ago
    Still won’t address my point. Compared with what the elites are getting, a ride on air force one is a pat on the head. Get a clue.
    - dang 6y ago
      Please don't do tedious flamewars on HN, and especially please don't cross into personal attack. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

oh_sigh 6y ago

If you want people to address your point, don't use ideolectic definitions of fairly well defined terms.

programmarchy 6y ago
Well, it's not a well defined term, that's part of the problem. I think it's worth the effort to challenge the language used to describe class and power, though, because the terminology omits the existence of the elite. I've addressed that elsewhere in the thread so won't rehash it again here, but it has revealed to me some of the weird psychological barriers in place preventing the rehabilitation of the language we use. For one, the middle doesn't want admit to themselves how far they truly are from actual power and prefer to think of themselves as high or near-high. Second, the shear exponential scale of the power disparity between the middle and high is hard to comprehend.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  I encourage you to continue your crusade and rewrite the wikipedia definition of middle class then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class