6 ms·

It surely feels like it at least when every single major javascript framework has a #BLM header. Nothing that don't matter or are relevant to me since I live in

It surely feels like it at least when every single major javascript framework has a #BLM header. Nothing that don't matter or are relevant to me since I live in northen europe.

durkie 6y ago
definitely no history of racism there.
- ecmascript 6y ago
  Actually no.
SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
> It surely feels like it at least when every single major javascript framework has a #BLM header. Isn't that expressing free speech? Or do you believe those headers have been coerced, and they feel forced to post one? I'm dubious that's the case, and I doubt it'll affect the frameworks future success whether they post one or not.
- searchableguy 6y ago
  > do you believe those headers have been coerced, and they feel forced to post one? https://twitter.com/aweary/status/1267893460423462912 https://twitter.com/aweary/status/1267893460423462912 https://twitter.com/aweary/status/1267895488205869057 https://twitter.com/aweary/status/1267895488205869057 Not taking any sides here.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    I'm not aware of the who's who in the JavaScript world - is Brandon Dail of considerable influence? Because it looks the same guy asks questions twice, and in your second example the top comments are rebuking his insistence. I didn't see the original post as the user has limited who can see their tweets.
    - searchableguy 6y ago
      > is Brandon Dail of considerable influence? Yes, he is from react team. > Second example the top comments are rebuking his insistence There are quite few agreeing too though. I just remember this example because brandon got fired over this since both people worked for facebook. I disagree that there is no pressure to add a BLM banner but that's it.
  - fsociety 6y ago
    And that guy is still calling people out for being racist because of “complicity” wowzers..
- Veen 6y ago
  If a majority posts a banner, and one doesn't, it will be understood as opposition. As we've been hearing a lot of late: "Silence is pro-racist" and "Silence is violence". Under those conditions, not posting a banner would be to risk being considered a racist organization. This is not quite coercion, but nor is it possible to decline to post a banner without substantial and probably unjustified cost.
  - SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
    OK, there may be some pressure (which I still doubt the long term effect of - Twitter is a great way to amplify things that extreme views that aren't particularly real world), but as those are expressions of free speech and the free market reacting to those forces, I'm still confused on how this leads to some sort of dystopia where liberalism is dead and the people's party decides how everything happens. It seems more like public opinion has shifted and people are wailing against the changing times. It's not as though a "Red's Communist Emporium" would have flown in the 60's.
    - 082349872349872 6y ago
      The slippery slope argument is old; I ran across it when looking up "poor white trash" to find a southerner opining in 1860 that if rich Bostonians allowed people to attack slavery, they'd wind up with (literal) communism soon after. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23599419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23599419 > "For (and mark well our words!) you, Sir, half priest and the other half demagogue, wearing the surplice and wielding also the secular arm of power, have been for a long time preaching a crusade against the rights of property--have taught men every where, that to deprive their neighbors of property valued at millions and millions of dollars, instead of being an infraction of the Divine Law and therefore criminal in the sight of God, on the contrary would entitle them to receive praise and honor in the present life, and insure to them in the life to come rewards imperishable. And upon what pretense, forsooth? Because your neighbors, as you claim, can possess no rights of property in men and women--in human flesh, and brawn, and blood, and brains, to use your own vernacular of cant. And so in truth they ought not in foro conscientioe, without making an equivalent return, either in the nature of protection, food, shelter, attention in sickness and the like; the most of which the Southern slaveholders are constrained by law to grant in return for the service exacted of their bondmen. But, you clamor, they do not return an exact and equal account--they charge too much for their kind superintendence and benevolent regard! Ah! Sir, it is just here that you have trodden upon an adder, which will in time turn and sting your Reverence. For, truly, the poisoned darts you have so resolutely hurled against the South will, rebounding, yet find a mark the archer little meant, and one close to your own hearthstone. > Unconsciously to yourself, you have been advocating all this time only a new species of agrarianism. Unconsciously you have been sowing the wind, and sooner or later will surely reap the whirlwind for your pains. Already your laborers, your operatives, your journeymen mechanics and others, secretly moot the question: How it happens they remain so poor, while their employers are constantly growing richer and richer; build their marble palaces, educate their children in idleness and dissipation, and besides spend half their own days tuft-hunting and toad-eating upon the continent of Europe. Already, we repeat, this terrible question is being mooted in secret conclave; and should the time ever come when it shall be mooted openly--when loudmouthed and earnest men, fresh from the people, shall bestride Faneuil Hall, bawling for an equal and exact distribution to every mechanic of whatever craft, to every operative of whatever mills, to every laborer of whatever grade--bawling, we say, for an equal and exact distribution to the workmen of the net proceeds of their combined labor; and denouncing in the same breath pampered capitalists, as so many lordlings growing rich on the earnings of the moiling and toiling poor, reaping where they have not sown, and gathering where they have not scattered; upon what plausible pretext will you, Sir, then seek to gainsay them? You will have none. Dumb and quaking with fear you would be constrained to acquiesce in their logic; for they would only use in their own behalf the identical arguments you have assiduously tried to impress upon their minds for ten years and more, in order to persuade them to interfere in the affairs of their neighbors." They must've had a bit more time to write rants in the nineteenth century. With the benefit of hindsight, we can also see the naïveté of times which apparently expected consistency as a measure in political arguments.
- ecmascript 6y ago
  > Isn't that expressing free speech? Sure it's free speech but it is also a mob mentality and a mob speak. What is the relevance for a javascript framework used world-wide to spam a specific american politics? Seriously, most european countries have a very small minority that is black and basically very little racism. No police brutality against any group etc. What is the relevance for us? What is the relevance for let's say an african programmer who live in a place where there basically aren't any whites? What is the relevance for an Chinese person living in a smaller city in which basically never meets any other race than asians? This kind of thinking that's coming from american movements is that the entire world depends on what the situation is in america. I don't really know what it's like to be either black or white in america and I don't really care either. I'm just getting pissed off by the virtue signaling bullshit and the agenda to make every country like america. I have ended every subscription service that panders to BLM, I stopped using Vue because of it. American politics rarely should impact technologies in my opinion, only when it is about said technology.
blueterminal 6y ago
As an European myself, I really hope we will not succumb to tyrannical movements so easily. It is super scary to see what's happening in the USA at the moment with leftists' unquestioned total domination.
- kombucha111 6y ago
  You are being severely misinformed. Nothing even close to that is happening right now. The movement is decidedly not tyrannical and certainly does not have unquestioned total domination. But the ideas behind it are very popular to be honest. People are sick of the current socio-economic arrangement, the abuse of authority and race relations on many levels.
  - blueterminal 6y ago
    When people lose their jobs if they make fun or just question certain group's behavior, what would you call it?
    - onion2k 6y ago
      Justice.
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Now I’m confused, are you describing the police or BLM?
      - s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
        The fact that you think it matters which one is the problem.
        ben_w 6y ago
        I am confused because to me it doesn’t seem like OP is describing either. One group has heavy weapons, heavy armour, a de-facto presumption in court of being justified when they use even lethal force, and a powerful lobby group that fights to prevent them losing their jobs. The other group is at risk of losing their limbs, eyesight, liberty, or lives, by having the audacity to complain when the former kills one of their friends or family. Neither of these groups matches OPs description.
onion2k 6y ago
Do you think humanity and empathy ends at a geographical border? You don't feel that the plight of people living under oppression is anything to do with you because they're far away? The reason why everyone, everywhere is saying BLM is important is because we live in a globally connected world now, and ignoring people due to borders and distance is no longer reasonable. We are all citizens of the world.
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  It's not a question of whether people have empathy. It's a question of whether they're going to fire you from your job or boycott your business if you aren't actively celebrate the cause de jure in the approved manner.
  - onion2k 6y ago
    That's nonsense. No one is going to be fired and no one is going to be boycotted for not joining in. People might be fired for being against BLM, but that's only right. If you get up and say a group of oppressed people should continue to be oppressed then you absolutely should be fired.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - fennecfoxen 6y ago
      > No one is going to be fired and no one is going to be boycotted for not joining in. I suspect if this were true this letter would not have been needed. http://hillsdalecollegian.com/2020/06/on-the-college-and-silence-a-letter-from-hillsdale-college/ http://hillsdalecollegian.com/2020/06/on-the-college-and-sil... > People might be fired for being against BLM, but that's only right. If you get up and say a group of oppressed people should continue to be oppressed then you absolutely should be fired. Black Lives Matter, as a movement generally, is riddled with Marxists. I have seen signs from the Marxist wing at every protest in the city, calling for the end of capitalism, free subway rides, and the immediate removal of Donald Trump without recourse to an election. Marxists sent my family to Siberian labor camps, and I have a beef with them. I expect free NYC subways would be economically inefficient. There are many other parts of BLM to which I object. I object to the charge that silence is violence. I object to the destruction of property, and to the statement that destruction of property is not violence. I object to those who have pulled down certain statues, like Grant and Washington. I object to the march slogan, which I have heard at half a dozen protests: "No cops! No KKK, No Racist USA"; the KKK are more than abstract bogeymen, but are real, and sometimes dangerous, and I have family who have been targeted by persons who I reasonably suspect to be bona fide members, as one of their other objects of hate: Roman Catholics. Perhaps this chant would be powerful in the American south, but I respectfully doubt that the half-white protest crowds of New York City are qualified to know the first thing about such matters. I further object to those who, in the name of BLM, head on to Twitter to solicit allegations of racism and names of people to doxx, harass, and get fired. All of these have taken place under the banner of Black Lives Matter. Perhaps some of them shouldn't have. Perhaps the brand should be more protected; in what I have witnessed, it's not. I have not previously raised these matters in any venue whatsoever, because I do not wish to undermine the reform of police impunity underway. My objections are typically not a matter of general interest, and I would not impose on people to subject them to such things. But for the purpose of this conversation right here, that I may rebuke you vigorously, I will freely admit to you: I am opposed to Black Lives Matter. I am opposed to them as a specific reification of needed reforms. I wish to be outside the group of BLM supporters. I have not blackened my profile picture, I have not used the hashtag anywhere in particular. You suggest this is sufficient to merit firing — or at least, your suggestion of what merits firing is not structured so that I might infer that my position ought to be safe. How dare you? How dare you presume that you or anyone like you are entitled to pass any judgment on my employment whatsoever? What right have you lot to threaten me, or to threaten anyone, like this? How fortunate for the world that your dreams of ideological tyranny should be thwarted! How fortunate are those of us still sufficiently blessed by liberty with the privilege to ignore those of like persuasion, to dismiss your empty screed, to cast you all down off the high horse of self-righteousness and be rid of your moralizing. Let all people strive to keep you from power. Let us never mistake loyalty for righteousness. Let us work instead to extend such blessings to all the world. (I hear, for instance, that black people often experience barriers which keep them from such blessings. Let us reach out to them in brotherhood.) I will further add that my CEO is African-American. I am proud of him. He's spoken out about racism in America, giving interviews to major news outlets, penning articles for high-profile publications. I dare not say that I speak for him, yet I would guess that if it you asked him to fire me, showed him what I have written here, that he would rebuke you: for I know he has passed through the fires of ideological scrutiny firsthand, and I think he has experienced personally these forces which your lot aspires to channel — seen how little they care for mercy, or even decency.
pjc50 6y ago
> Nothing that don't matter or are relevant to me since I live in northen europe. Everybody knows there are no black people in Europe! Problem solved!

It surely feels like it at least when every single major javascript framework has a #BLM header. Nothing that don't matter or are relevant to me since I live in northen europe.

durkie 6y ago

definitely no history of racism there.

ecmascript 6y ago
Actually no.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago

> It surely feels like it at least when every single major javascript framework has a #BLM header. Isn't that expressing free speech? Or do you believe those headers have been coerced, and they feel forced to post one? I'm dubious that's the case, and I doubt it'll affect the frameworks future success whether they post one or not.

searchableguy 6y ago
> do you believe those headers have been coerced, and they feel forced to post one? https://twitter.com/aweary/status/1267893460423462912 https://twitter.com/aweary/status/1267893460423462912 https://twitter.com/aweary/status/1267895488205869057 https://twitter.com/aweary/status/1267895488205869057 Not taking any sides here.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  I'm not aware of the who's who in the JavaScript world - is Brandon Dail of considerable influence? Because it looks the same guy asks questions twice, and in your second example the top comments are rebuking his insistence. I didn't see the original post as the user has limited who can see their tweets.
  - searchableguy 6y ago
    > is Brandon Dail of considerable influence? Yes, he is from react team. > Second example the top comments are rebuking his insistence There are quite few agreeing too though. I just remember this example because brandon got fired over this since both people worked for facebook. I disagree that there is no pressure to add a BLM banner but that's it.
- fsociety 6y ago
  And that guy is still calling people out for being racist because of “complicity” wowzers..
Veen 6y ago
If a majority posts a banner, and one doesn't, it will be understood as opposition. As we've been hearing a lot of late: "Silence is pro-racist" and "Silence is violence". Under those conditions, not posting a banner would be to risk being considered a racist organization. This is not quite coercion, but nor is it possible to decline to post a banner without substantial and probably unjustified cost.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  OK, there may be some pressure (which I still doubt the long term effect of - Twitter is a great way to amplify things that extreme views that aren't particularly real world), but as those are expressions of free speech and the free market reacting to those forces, I'm still confused on how this leads to some sort of dystopia where liberalism is dead and the people's party decides how everything happens. It seems more like public opinion has shifted and people are wailing against the changing times. It's not as though a "Red's Communist Emporium" would have flown in the 60's.
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    The slippery slope argument is old; I ran across it when looking up "poor white trash" to find a southerner opining in 1860 that if rich Bostonians allowed people to attack slavery, they'd wind up with (literal) communism soon after. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23599419 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23599419 > "For (and mark well our words!) you, Sir, half priest and the other half demagogue, wearing the surplice and wielding also the secular arm of power, have been for a long time preaching a crusade against the rights of property--have taught men every where, that to deprive their neighbors of property valued at millions and millions of dollars, instead of being an infraction of the Divine Law and therefore criminal in the sight of God, on the contrary would entitle them to receive praise and honor in the present life, and insure to them in the life to come rewards imperishable. And upon what pretense, forsooth? Because your neighbors, as you claim, can possess no rights of property in men and women--in human flesh, and brawn, and blood, and brains, to use your own vernacular of cant. And so in truth they ought not in foro conscientioe, without making an equivalent return, either in the nature of protection, food, shelter, attention in sickness and the like; the most of which the Southern slaveholders are constrained by law to grant in return for the service exacted of their bondmen. But, you clamor, they do not return an exact and equal account--they charge too much for their kind superintendence and benevolent regard! Ah! Sir, it is just here that you have trodden upon an adder, which will in time turn and sting your Reverence. For, truly, the poisoned darts you have so resolutely hurled against the South will, rebounding, yet find a mark the archer little meant, and one close to your own hearthstone. > Unconsciously to yourself, you have been advocating all this time only a new species of agrarianism. Unconsciously you have been sowing the wind, and sooner or later will surely reap the whirlwind for your pains. Already your laborers, your operatives, your journeymen mechanics and others, secretly moot the question: How it happens they remain so poor, while their employers are constantly growing richer and richer; build their marble palaces, educate their children in idleness and dissipation, and besides spend half their own days tuft-hunting and toad-eating upon the continent of Europe. Already, we repeat, this terrible question is being mooted in secret conclave; and should the time ever come when it shall be mooted openly--when loudmouthed and earnest men, fresh from the people, shall bestride Faneuil Hall, bawling for an equal and exact distribution to every mechanic of whatever craft, to every operative of whatever mills, to every laborer of whatever grade--bawling, we say, for an equal and exact distribution to the workmen of the net proceeds of their combined labor; and denouncing in the same breath pampered capitalists, as so many lordlings growing rich on the earnings of the moiling and toiling poor, reaping where they have not sown, and gathering where they have not scattered; upon what plausible pretext will you, Sir, then seek to gainsay them? You will have none. Dumb and quaking with fear you would be constrained to acquiesce in their logic; for they would only use in their own behalf the identical arguments you have assiduously tried to impress upon their minds for ten years and more, in order to persuade them to interfere in the affairs of their neighbors." They must've had a bit more time to write rants in the nineteenth century. With the benefit of hindsight, we can also see the naïveté of times which apparently expected consistency as a measure in political arguments.
ecmascript 6y ago
> Isn't that expressing free speech? Sure it's free speech but it is also a mob mentality and a mob speak. What is the relevance for a javascript framework used world-wide to spam a specific american politics? Seriously, most european countries have a very small minority that is black and basically very little racism. No police brutality against any group etc. What is the relevance for us? What is the relevance for let's say an african programmer who live in a place where there basically aren't any whites? What is the relevance for an Chinese person living in a smaller city in which basically never meets any other race than asians? This kind of thinking that's coming from american movements is that the entire world depends on what the situation is in america. I don't really know what it's like to be either black or white in america and I don't really care either. I'm just getting pissed off by the virtue signaling bullshit and the agenda to make every country like america. I have ended every subscription service that panders to BLM, I stopped using Vue because of it. American politics rarely should impact technologies in my opinion, only when it is about said technology.

blueterminal 6y ago

As an European myself, I really hope we will not succumb to tyrannical movements so easily. It is super scary to see what's happening in the USA at the moment with leftists' unquestioned total domination.

kombucha111 6y ago
You are being severely misinformed. Nothing even close to that is happening right now. The movement is decidedly not tyrannical and certainly does not have unquestioned total domination. But the ideas behind it are very popular to be honest. People are sick of the current socio-economic arrangement, the abuse of authority and race relations on many levels.
- blueterminal 6y ago
  When people lose their jobs if they make fun or just question certain group's behavior, what would you call it?
  - onion2k 6y ago
    Justice.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    Now I’m confused, are you describing the police or BLM?
    - s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
      The fact that you think it matters which one is the problem.
      - ben_w 6y ago
        I am confused because to me it doesn’t seem like OP is describing either. One group has heavy weapons, heavy armour, a de-facto presumption in court of being justified when they use even lethal force, and a powerful lobby group that fights to prevent them losing their jobs. The other group is at risk of losing their limbs, eyesight, liberty, or lives, by having the audacity to complain when the former kills one of their friends or family. Neither of these groups matches OPs description.

onion2k 6y ago

Do you think humanity and empathy ends at a geographical border? You don't feel that the plight of people living under oppression is anything to do with you because they're far away? The reason why everyone, everywhere is saying BLM is important is because we live in a globally connected world now, and ignoring people due to borders and distance is no longer reasonable. We are all citizens of the world.

fennecfoxen 6y ago
It's not a question of whether people have empathy. It's a question of whether they're going to fire you from your job or boycott your business if you aren't actively celebrate the cause de jure in the approved manner.
- onion2k 6y ago
  That's nonsense. No one is going to be fired and no one is going to be boycotted for not joining in. People might be fired for being against BLM, but that's only right. If you get up and say a group of oppressed people should continue to be oppressed then you absolutely should be fired.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    > No one is going to be fired and no one is going to be boycotted for not joining in. I suspect if this were true this letter would not have been needed. http://hillsdalecollegian.com/2020/06/on-the-college-and-silence-a-letter-from-hillsdale-college/ http://hillsdalecollegian.com/2020/06/on-the-college-and-sil... > People might be fired for being against BLM, but that's only right. If you get up and say a group of oppressed people should continue to be oppressed then you absolutely should be fired. Black Lives Matter, as a movement generally, is riddled with Marxists. I have seen signs from the Marxist wing at every protest in the city, calling for the end of capitalism, free subway rides, and the immediate removal of Donald Trump without recourse to an election. Marxists sent my family to Siberian labor camps, and I have a beef with them. I expect free NYC subways would be economically inefficient. There are many other parts of BLM to which I object. I object to the charge that silence is violence. I object to the destruction of property, and to the statement that destruction of property is not violence. I object to those who have pulled down certain statues, like Grant and Washington. I object to the march slogan, which I have heard at half a dozen protests: "No cops! No KKK, No Racist USA"; the KKK are more than abstract bogeymen, but are real, and sometimes dangerous, and I have family who have been targeted by persons who I reasonably suspect to be bona fide members, as one of their other objects of hate: Roman Catholics. Perhaps this chant would be powerful in the American south, but I respectfully doubt that the half-white protest crowds of New York City are qualified to know the first thing about such matters. I further object to those who, in the name of BLM, head on to Twitter to solicit allegations of racism and names of people to doxx, harass, and get fired. All of these have taken place under the banner of Black Lives Matter. Perhaps some of them shouldn't have. Perhaps the brand should be more protected; in what I have witnessed, it's not. I have not previously raised these matters in any venue whatsoever, because I do not wish to undermine the reform of police impunity underway. My objections are typically not a matter of general interest, and I would not impose on people to subject them to such things. But for the purpose of this conversation right here, that I may rebuke you vigorously, I will freely admit to you: I am opposed to Black Lives Matter. I am opposed to them as a specific reification of needed reforms. I wish to be outside the group of BLM supporters. I have not blackened my profile picture, I have not used the hashtag anywhere in particular. You suggest this is sufficient to merit firing — or at least, your suggestion of what merits firing is not structured so that I might infer that my position ought to be safe. How dare you? How dare you presume that you or anyone like you are entitled to pass any judgment on my employment whatsoever? What right have you lot to threaten me, or to threaten anyone, like this? How fortunate for the world that your dreams of ideological tyranny should be thwarted! How fortunate are those of us still sufficiently blessed by liberty with the privilege to ignore those of like persuasion, to dismiss your empty screed, to cast you all down off the high horse of self-righteousness and be rid of your moralizing. Let all people strive to keep you from power. Let us never mistake loyalty for righteousness. Let us work instead to extend such blessings to all the world. (I hear, for instance, that black people often experience barriers which keep them from such blessings. Let us reach out to them in brotherhood.) I will further add that my CEO is African-American. I am proud of him. He's spoken out about racism in America, giving interviews to major news outlets, penning articles for high-profile publications. I dare not say that I speak for him, yet I would guess that if it you asked him to fire me, showed him what I have written here, that he would rebuke you: for I know he has passed through the fires of ideological scrutiny firsthand, and I think he has experienced personally these forces which your lot aspires to channel — seen how little they care for mercy, or even decency.

pjc50 6y ago

> Nothing that don't matter or are relevant to me since I live in northen europe. Everybody knows there are no black people in Europe! Problem solved!