8 ms·

No surprises, the country is deeply hostile to capitalism and innovation. Brazil is not poor by accident. Too bad, as this could have been a boon to small busin

by f00zz 6y ago

No surprises, the country is deeply hostile to capitalism and innovation. Brazil is not poor by accident. Too bad, as this could have been a boon to small businesses.

victords 6y ago
That's quite a jump to conclusion... I don't think that the issue here is Brazil's position on capitalism or innovation, there are other companies providing similar services there. The issue seems to be a juggernaut company like Facebook, with all the flaws that it has, trying to enter the payment sector of a developing country without regulation or notice.
- f00zz 6y ago
  > a juggernaut company like Facebook More likely Brazil's central bank doesn't want competition with its own payment system (Pix).
  - m1aw 6y ago
    But there's also other companies/services like Picpay and stuff right?
    - rescbr 6y ago
      There are, and they are registered as payment processors or e-wallets. Facebook isn't.
  - Anarch157a 6y ago
    The Central Bank wants a system that's interoperable, so in certain ways, Pix promotes competition.
- Dacod 6y ago
  Honestly! It kind of reminds me of Marc Andreessen's "Anti-colonialism has been economically catastrophic for the Indian people for decades. Why stop now?” comment.
  - Synaesthesia 6y ago
    It’s working out for China somehow though ..
whb07 6y ago
Yep, only people to suffer will be the little ones whilst the larger players get to be piggish on the fat margins.
zekrioca 6y ago
> "Deeply hostile to capitalism". They are avoiding a monopoly to surge. > "Brazil is poor". I guess one has to travel.
- skuzye 6y ago
  Speaking as a Brazilian - the country is an odd one. If you go by GDP it should be a rich country but it just isn't. It's rightly classified as an emergent country. It has deep social and poverty problems that needs addressing even though it's a regional economic force. Brazil is definitely capitalist but it's hard to do business there - 144th place in economic freedom index.
  - f00zz 6y ago
    > If you go by GDP it should be a rich country Not really. GDP is large, but that's only because the population is large. Per capita GDP is around US$ 9k, which makes us poorer than Mexico or Argentina. For comparison, per capita GDP in Sweden is something like US$ 54k. I remember being taught in school that Brazil is the n-th richest country in the world, and if only that wealth were evenly distributed we could all enjoy a welfare state like in Europe. That is simply not possible. But I guess many people here still believe it because the country has a few highly visible pockets of wealth.
    - pedrocr 6y ago
      Comparing to Sweden is a bit extreme. Portugal's comparable GDP is 24k. It's still a factor of 3x but a lot of the costs in a welfare state scale with the wealth of the economy as they are just directly cost of labor. Having a reasonable welfare state, that's not world-class but isn't the US either, should be possible.
      - 317070 6y ago
        Yes, Brazil is practically halfway between Portugal and Angola. It's half the GDP per capita of Portugal, but twice that of Angola: https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&idim=country:AGO:DZA:ZMB&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_pp_kd&scale_y=log&ind_y=false&rdim=world&idim=country:AGO:PRT:BRA&ifdim=world&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...
duaoebg 6y ago
Brazil is a corrupt highly taxed basket case. I know plenty of people who left. The govt there tried to buy some software from me and then tried to tax the international sale by %40 after the price was agreed. I added the tax on top and they pulled out. I have a unofficial free for Latin America donation program for different software because of all the end users from there who can’t afford it. They write to me explaining their situation. I think a distinction should be made, if at all possible, between capitalism and corporatism. Brazil is pro-corporatist and anti—capitalist. This is common in Latin America with its crazy wealth distribution.
- f00zz 6y ago
  > tax the international sale by %40 I'm not surprised. In general, import duties are around 60%, and that's not even the full story. The (foreign) company I work for sent me a development board once; when it arrived here I found out that, in addition to those 60%, I'd have to pay 18% state taxes. I was expecting this to add up to 78%, or even 1.6 * 1.18 = 89%, but in fact it's computed like (1.6 / (1 - 0.18)) = 95%. Ostensibly, these tariffs are meant to protect the local industry from foreign competition. I heard that there are certain other countries trying to do the same; they should be careful what they wish for.
  - duaoebg 6y ago
    That is rough. I was unaware of the heavy import taxes. But they’re the ones buying so they should pay the tax, expecting me to sell internationally tax inclusive was weird, and possibly a miscommunication with an intermediary, or someone was trying to pull a trick. I think my competitor must have done some transfer pricing with a local branch. I understand the rational for protectionism and at the same time worry about the future it will lead to. The ability to buy just about anything from just about anywhere was one of the things I really liked about the US.
    - rescbr 6y ago
      I've never seen international sales being tax inclusive. The buyer (or local branch) always pays, and they are responsible to pay the tax authorities.
tchaffee 6y ago
Brazil has massive investments coming in from foreign investors on a steady basis because of the capitalism and innovation.
- rbanffy 6y ago
  I believe this person probably thinks Brazil had two socialist presidents, Lula and Dilma (plus a socialist interim one, Michel Temer) prior to the God-chosen one it has now. I wouldn't engage.
rescbr 6y ago
> the country is deeply hostile to capitalism and innovation Sure, but payment processing, money transfers, e-wallets etc. are regulated matters in Brazil as they are in the EU and in the US. Facebook is not registered as a financial institution and is not a participant in the Brazilian Payments System, unlike PayPal and other local and international players, so you can figure out why the Central Bank put a stop to Facebook's launch.
tehjoker 6y ago
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-politics-chicagoboys-analysis/brazils-chicago-oldies-aim-to-revive-pinochet-era-economic-playbook-idUSKCN1OY1OM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-politics-chicagobo... Also as a reminder, Brasil had a military dictatorship overthrow a social democratic movement in order to implement economic privatization. Bolsonaro is famously a huge fan of the dictatorship years. The dictatorship was US backed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%A9...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

by f00zz 6y ago

No surprises, the country is deeply hostile to capitalism and innovation. Brazil is not poor by accident. Too bad, as this could have been a boon to small businesses.

victords 6y ago

That's quite a jump to conclusion... I don't think that the issue here is Brazil's position on capitalism or innovation, there are other companies providing similar services there. The issue seems to be a juggernaut company like Facebook, with all the flaws that it has, trying to enter the payment sector of a developing country without regulation or notice.

f00zz 6y ago
> a juggernaut company like Facebook More likely Brazil's central bank doesn't want competition with its own payment system (Pix).
- m1aw 6y ago
  But there's also other companies/services like Picpay and stuff right?
  - rescbr 6y ago
    There are, and they are registered as payment processors or e-wallets. Facebook isn't.
- Anarch157a 6y ago
  The Central Bank wants a system that's interoperable, so in certain ways, Pix promotes competition.
Dacod 6y ago
Honestly! It kind of reminds me of Marc Andreessen's "Anti-colonialism has been economically catastrophic for the Indian people for decades. Why stop now?” comment.
- Synaesthesia 6y ago
  It’s working out for China somehow though ..

whb07 6y ago

Yep, only people to suffer will be the little ones whilst the larger players get to be piggish on the fat margins.

zekrioca 6y ago

> "Deeply hostile to capitalism". They are avoiding a monopoly to surge. > "Brazil is poor". I guess one has to travel.

skuzye 6y ago
Speaking as a Brazilian - the country is an odd one. If you go by GDP it should be a rich country but it just isn't. It's rightly classified as an emergent country. It has deep social and poverty problems that needs addressing even though it's a regional economic force. Brazil is definitely capitalist but it's hard to do business there - 144th place in economic freedom index.
- f00zz 6y ago
  > If you go by GDP it should be a rich country Not really. GDP is large, but that's only because the population is large. Per capita GDP is around US$ 9k, which makes us poorer than Mexico or Argentina. For comparison, per capita GDP in Sweden is something like US$ 54k. I remember being taught in school that Brazil is the n-th richest country in the world, and if only that wealth were evenly distributed we could all enjoy a welfare state like in Europe. That is simply not possible. But I guess many people here still believe it because the country has a few highly visible pockets of wealth.
  - pedrocr 6y ago
    Comparing to Sweden is a bit extreme. Portugal's comparable GDP is 24k. It's still a factor of 3x but a lot of the costs in a welfare state scale with the wealth of the economy as they are just directly cost of labor. Having a reasonable welfare state, that's not world-class but isn't the US either, should be possible.
    - 317070 6y ago
      Yes, Brazil is practically halfway between Portugal and Angola. It's half the GDP per capita of Portugal, but twice that of Angola: https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&idim=country:AGO:DZA:ZMB&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_pp_kd&scale_y=log&ind_y=false&rdim=world&idim=country:AGO:PRT:BRA&ifdim=world&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...

duaoebg 6y ago

Brazil is a corrupt highly taxed basket case. I know plenty of people who left. The govt there tried to buy some software from me and then tried to tax the international sale by %40 after the price was agreed. I added the tax on top and they pulled out. I have a unofficial free for Latin America donation program for different software because of all the end users from there who can’t afford it. They write to me explaining their situation. I think a distinction should be made, if at all possible, between capitalism and corporatism. Brazil is pro-corporatist and anti—capitalist. This is common in Latin America with its crazy wealth distribution.

f00zz 6y ago
> tax the international sale by %40 I'm not surprised. In general, import duties are around 60%, and that's not even the full story. The (foreign) company I work for sent me a development board once; when it arrived here I found out that, in addition to those 60%, I'd have to pay 18% state taxes. I was expecting this to add up to 78%, or even 1.6 * 1.18 = 89%, but in fact it's computed like (1.6 / (1 - 0.18)) = 95%. Ostensibly, these tariffs are meant to protect the local industry from foreign competition. I heard that there are certain other countries trying to do the same; they should be careful what they wish for.
- duaoebg 6y ago
  That is rough. I was unaware of the heavy import taxes. But they’re the ones buying so they should pay the tax, expecting me to sell internationally tax inclusive was weird, and possibly a miscommunication with an intermediary, or someone was trying to pull a trick. I think my competitor must have done some transfer pricing with a local branch. I understand the rational for protectionism and at the same time worry about the future it will lead to. The ability to buy just about anything from just about anywhere was one of the things I really liked about the US.
  - rescbr 6y ago
    I've never seen international sales being tax inclusive. The buyer (or local branch) always pays, and they are responsible to pay the tax authorities.

tchaffee 6y ago

Brazil has massive investments coming in from foreign investors on a steady basis because of the capitalism and innovation.

rbanffy 6y ago
I believe this person probably thinks Brazil had two socialist presidents, Lula and Dilma (plus a socialist interim one, Michel Temer) prior to the God-chosen one it has now. I wouldn't engage.

rescbr 6y ago

> the country is deeply hostile to capitalism and innovation Sure, but payment processing, money transfers, e-wallets etc. are regulated matters in Brazil as they are in the EU and in the US. Facebook is not registered as a financial institution and is not a participant in the Brazilian Payments System, unlike PayPal and other local and international players, so you can figure out why the Central Bank put a stop to Facebook's launch.

tehjoker 6y ago

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-politics-chicagoboys-analysis/brazils-chicago-oldies-aim-to-revive-pinochet-era-economic-playbook-idUSKCN1OY1OM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-politics-chicagobo... Also as a reminder, Brasil had a military dictatorship overthrow a social democratic movement in order to implement economic privatization. Bolsonaro is famously a huge fan of the dictatorship years. The dictatorship was US backed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%A9...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]