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Tolkien utterly detested people like the author of this article. As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neith

Tolkien utterly detested people like the author of this article. As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical.... Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.

Thorentis 6y ago
Yeah, this author is off on a few points, sometimes grossly so. Also: > a land of enchantment and possibility and freedom, with a powerful and complex mythology that would bear comparison with those of any other country. No, they wouldn't bare comparison with just any other country. Tolkien was writing about his own country, which was England. The English countryside and culture is unique. The Shire, its jokes, its traditions, its lore, is just so obviously an adaption of the early 20th century English-countryside. Sure, there are some vague similarities between other Western countries, but it is so unmistakably English, that trying to make a feel-good statement like this at the end seems horribly forced.
- thecobbler 6y ago
  You seem to be interpreting “bear comparison” as “bear resemblance”? The author is saying that the mythology would be of a comparable complexity and caliber (which can be achieved while still being unmistakably English), not that it would resemble European folklore thematically.
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  frankly the shire is quite similar to small Danish towns.
pedrosbmartins 6y ago
I don't think this quote refutes the author's point. Tolkien was vehemently denying that his works were allegorical, in the sense that one should not look for deeper, hidden meaning in the LOTR or any other tale set in Middle-Earth. But this article simply describes how Tolkien (allegedly) tried to compose a stronger English mythology, then eventually abandoned the idea and settled for the purely fictional setting that Middle-Earth is. Don't know if this description is factual, but if it is, it wouldn't mean that Tolkien's work is allegorical.
- qznc 6y ago
  Tolkien rejected the idea to compare Sauron and Hitler. He rejected that LOTR was his way to handle his war trauma. His biggest argument is that most ideas existed before WW2.
  - jacobush 6y ago
    Wouldn't it have been WW1 he would have processed? Both because he was in it and because it was the first industrialised war. Mordor makes one think of trenches and devilish factories.
    - goto11 6y ago
      > Mordor makes one think of trenches and devilish factories. Tolkien hates you now! But seriously, he was open about how WWI influenced his writing. I think his rant against allegories is more about direct allegorical reading like "Mordor is supposed to symbolize WWI trenches etc."
      - eredengrin 6y ago
        I totally agree here. I think there's a difference between recognizing where Tolkien's inspiration came from vs saying that an element which took inspiration from elsewhere was necessarily meant to specifically represent that thing in his work.
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    Maybe, but Lord of the Rings is still basically a 1000 pages metaphor about experiencing "The War" and homesick. If is is so good is because all is mounted over a frame of reality that makes all to fall in place and supports the action A few examples can be seen when characters walking for days start walking by the grass at the borders of the path, or to describe fields without cattle in wartime.
- kergonath 6y ago
  The fact that Tolkien wanted to create the equivalent of Nordic mythology for England is very well documented. I don’t have the link off hand, but there are several of his letters on the subject. It is transparent in his drafts from the Book of Lost Tales as well. I don’t think he gave up on that, he was just lost in his sprawling creation. Interestingly, Leaf by Niggle is a perfect allegory for that.
dang 6y ago
Maybe so, but please don't post cheap dyspeptic internet dismissals to HN. We're trying for at least a notch better than that here, and we've had to ask you about this multiple times in the past. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
goto11 6y ago
I don't see the connection between the quote and the article. Tolkien is rejecting allegorical reading like "the ring symbolize the coronavirus, Saruman represent Trump" etc. The article is not about allegory though but about the intentions and influences of Tolkien. Tolkien was open about his influences and at times they are pretty blatant, like directly taking the names of dwarwes from the Edda. Also the whole mythology is directly based on christian mythology, but he didn't consider that allegory but more like a retelling.
- brtkdotse 6y ago
  > Tolkien is rejecting allegorical reading like "the ring symbolize the coronavirus, Saruman represent Trump" etc. Brb, gonna make a YouTube-video with a million views.
- eredengrin 6y ago
  > Also the whole mythology is directly based on christian mythology That sounds like a pretty big stretch to me, could you elaborate? I agree there are most certainly elements from Christianity in it, but claiming the entire thing is based directly on it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, nor does that seem to be how Tolkien viewed it, at least as far as I can tell. For example, in one particular quote in the preface of the Silmarillion (as part of a letter Tolkien wrote to Milton Waldman), Tolkien says "In the cosmogony there is a fall: a fall of Angels we should say. Though quite different in form, of course, to that of Christian myth. These tales are 'new', they are not directly derived from other myths and legends, but they must inevitably contain a large measure of ancient wide-spread motives or elements...There cannot be any 'story' without a fall - all stories are ultimately about the fall - at least not for human minds as we know them and have them." I suspect the tendency to lump Tolkien's works together with Christianity may be more due to both his own association with Christianity as well as the general cultural knowledge of Christianity, whereas other myths he may be deriving from are not as widely known.
  - goto11 6y ago
    Just read the creation myth in the first chapters in Silmarillion. It's basically Paradise Lost with more diacritics. What other mythologies have angels anyway? The Tolkien mythology is monotheistic and morally dualistic (good vs evil), which is fundamentally different from the pagan cultures he is otherwise inspired by. I actually think this is key to his success: He takes a lot of cool stuff from pagan mythologies and legends, but he frames it in a simplified "good versus evil" dualism which is easier to understand for modern readers with this background.

Thorentis 6y ago

Yeah, this author is off on a few points, sometimes grossly so. Also: > a land of enchantment and possibility and freedom, with a powerful and complex mythology that would bear comparison with those of any other country. No, they wouldn't bare comparison with just any other country. Tolkien was writing about his own country, which was England. The English countryside and culture is unique. The Shire, its jokes, its traditions, its lore, is just so obviously an adaption of the early 20th century English-countryside. Sure, there are some vague similarities between other Western countries, but it is so unmistakably English, that trying to make a feel-good statement like this at the end seems horribly forced.

thecobbler 6y ago
You seem to be interpreting “bear comparison” as “bear resemblance”? The author is saying that the mythology would be of a comparable complexity and caliber (which can be achieved while still being unmistakably English), not that it would resemble European folklore thematically.
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
frankly the shire is quite similar to small Danish towns.

pedrosbmartins 6y ago

I don't think this quote refutes the author's point. Tolkien was vehemently denying that his works were allegorical, in the sense that one should not look for deeper, hidden meaning in the LOTR or any other tale set in Middle-Earth. But this article simply describes how Tolkien (allegedly) tried to compose a stronger English mythology, then eventually abandoned the idea and settled for the purely fictional setting that Middle-Earth is. Don't know if this description is factual, but if it is, it wouldn't mean that Tolkien's work is allegorical.

qznc 6y ago
Tolkien rejected the idea to compare Sauron and Hitler. He rejected that LOTR was his way to handle his war trauma. His biggest argument is that most ideas existed before WW2.
- jacobush 6y ago
  Wouldn't it have been WW1 he would have processed? Both because he was in it and because it was the first industrialised war. Mordor makes one think of trenches and devilish factories.
  - goto11 6y ago
    > Mordor makes one think of trenches and devilish factories. Tolkien hates you now! But seriously, he was open about how WWI influenced his writing. I think his rant against allegories is more about direct allegorical reading like "Mordor is supposed to symbolize WWI trenches etc."
    - eredengrin 6y ago
      I totally agree here. I think there's a difference between recognizing where Tolkien's inspiration came from vs saying that an element which took inspiration from elsewhere was necessarily meant to specifically represent that thing in his work.
- pvaldes 6y ago
  Maybe, but Lord of the Rings is still basically a 1000 pages metaphor about experiencing "The War" and homesick. If is is so good is because all is mounted over a frame of reality that makes all to fall in place and supports the action A few examples can be seen when characters walking for days start walking by the grass at the borders of the path, or to describe fields without cattle in wartime.
kergonath 6y ago
The fact that Tolkien wanted to create the equivalent of Nordic mythology for England is very well documented. I don’t have the link off hand, but there are several of his letters on the subject. It is transparent in his drafts from the Book of Lost Tales as well. I don’t think he gave up on that, he was just lost in his sprawling creation. Interestingly, Leaf by Niggle is a perfect allegory for that.

dang 6y ago

Maybe so, but please don't post cheap dyspeptic internet dismissals to HN. We're trying for at least a notch better than that here, and we've had to ask you about this multiple times in the past. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

goto11 6y ago

I don't see the connection between the quote and the article. Tolkien is rejecting allegorical reading like "the ring symbolize the coronavirus, Saruman represent Trump" etc. The article is not about allegory though but about the intentions and influences of Tolkien. Tolkien was open about his influences and at times they are pretty blatant, like directly taking the names of dwarwes from the Edda. Also the whole mythology is directly based on christian mythology, but he didn't consider that allegory but more like a retelling.

brtkdotse 6y ago
> Tolkien is rejecting allegorical reading like "the ring symbolize the coronavirus, Saruman represent Trump" etc. Brb, gonna make a YouTube-video with a million views.
eredengrin 6y ago
> Also the whole mythology is directly based on christian mythology That sounds like a pretty big stretch to me, could you elaborate? I agree there are most certainly elements from Christianity in it, but claiming the entire thing is based directly on it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, nor does that seem to be how Tolkien viewed it, at least as far as I can tell. For example, in one particular quote in the preface of the Silmarillion (as part of a letter Tolkien wrote to Milton Waldman), Tolkien says "In the cosmogony there is a fall: a fall of Angels we should say. Though quite different in form, of course, to that of Christian myth. These tales are 'new', they are not directly derived from other myths and legends, but they must inevitably contain a large measure of ancient wide-spread motives or elements...There cannot be any 'story' without a fall - all stories are ultimately about the fall - at least not for human minds as we know them and have them." I suspect the tendency to lump Tolkien's works together with Christianity may be more due to both his own association with Christianity as well as the general cultural knowledge of Christianity, whereas other myths he may be deriving from are not as widely known.
- goto11 6y ago
  Just read the creation myth in the first chapters in Silmarillion. It's basically Paradise Lost with more diacritics. What other mythologies have angels anyway? The Tolkien mythology is monotheistic and morally dualistic (good vs evil), which is fundamentally different from the pagan cultures he is otherwise inspired by. I actually think this is key to his success: He takes a lot of cool stuff from pagan mythologies and legends, but he frames it in a simplified "good versus evil" dualism which is easier to understand for modern readers with this background.