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Lets not pretend that the value is even comparable here. You can get a modern car with safety, speed and reach that is hundred if not thousand times ahead of th

Lets not pretend that the value is even comparable here. You can get a modern car with safety, speed and reach that is hundred if not thousand times ahead of this electric bike. It's purely a high-class fashion vehicle and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't pretend it's something more.

cheschire 6y ago
Cars are wildly impractical in much of Benelux. You’re forcing your worldview where it doesn’t fit. The other poster said Home Depot though so is most likely American. Go reply to that person with your myopic views.
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  "wildly" is wildly exaggerated, "the Benelux" is much more than the car-unfriendly urban areas.
  - notagoodidea 6y ago
    As much as I don't agree with the aggressive tone of the grand-parent post, I tend to find it less a problem outside the urban areas due to the bike roads in the "countryside" more available either in Belgium or the Netherlands. It is also the part of the countries when the need of a car is enhanced due the need to travel way longer distances to reach day-to-day facilities (supermarket, shops, etc.). And yes, different countries, different prices, requirements etc. Comparison is fallacious but taking inspiration of something done in another part of the world and applying it with the constraints of your own environment is always useful. The question of mobility is much centred around the mobility in urban areas of various sizes. I may project here because I used to live in urban areas most of my life.
mypalmike 6y ago
The value of a tool is how it serves the user's needs. Different users, different situations, different needs.
Xylakant 6y ago
Value is always relative to your intended use case. I own a similar sized and prized cargo bike. It replaces all my urban transportation needs, carrying me and my 3yo kid and all the cargo we need. It’s cargo capacity is in line with a small car. My average speed in the city is about 20km/h which is very much in line with a cars average speed in an urban setting. On many of our daily commutes it’s even faster than a car. For us, it entirely replaces a car. It’s cheaper to maintain. I can largely fix it myself. I ride it for about 3000-4000 km per year, which is a definite indicator that it’s not a toy device.
jacquesm 6y ago
(1) bikes are priced disproportionally high compared to cars, (2) e-bike even more so, (3) this is a top of the line model from a fancy brand, (4) cost of ownership of a bike is a very small fraction of a car, with a bike when you've paid for it you're done, maintenance is cheap and DIY. Cars: insurance, expensive maintenance, road tax, fuel etc. Personally I almost always buy my bikes second hand, there are always deals to be had where bikes are only a few months old and are sold with a 50% or more discount.
- abyssin 6y ago
  In Belgium, second hand bikes tend to be overpriced, because many sellers aren't aware of the disproportionately high cost of local labor compared to the cost of producing a new bike. The price of local labor should be taken into account because you need it to maintain the second hand bike. I used to buy my bikes second hand, but I've switched to buying a new one every three years, and it requires little maintenance since I choose a higher end one. I agree with you comparison to cars. In the last five years prices have significantly gone down thanks to big players like Decathlon or online brands, but they're still quite high. 500 euros can buy you 1000 kg of second hand metal, or an entry-level bicycle. I know there's more to it, but I still don't understand why good quality bicycles cost so much to produce.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    Another angle: or why cars are so incredibly cheap for what they offer. Do keep in mind that car manufacturers make a lot more on the after-sales track than bike manufacturers ever will and some might be willing to reduce the sticker price a bit but raise the price of parts and maintenance to counterbalance that.
    - kabacha 6y ago
      I think it's just the difference that car industry is much bigger and much more efficient with its labor. It's also widely different markets so clearly markup is very different. Where automobile markup is often not more than few percent hipster urban ebike market can easily justify 500% markup.
fnord123 6y ago
With car share schemes, the value of buying a car when you only use it occasionally is greatly diminished while a cargo bike can be used daily for the school run. But it depends where you are. American towns and cities are largely built for cars. Many European cities are built for walking and are pedestrianizing their city centers. Depending on your situation there's no need for a car aside from really occasional use. Calling a cargo bike "purely a high-class fashion vehicle" is not correct.
matsemann 6y ago
> Lets not pretend that the value is even comparable here. Agreed, but for opposite reasons. As someone living in a city I drive a few times a year. I bike 200kms a week, though. So the value of a bicycle is vastly better.
michaelt 6y ago
> It's purely a high-class fashion vehicle But that's true of any motor vehicle that isn't a sub-$1000 used Corolla. Buying a $10,000 e-bike isn't something I'd do personally, but it's certainly no crazier than buying a $100,000 Tesla.
abyssin 6y ago
I don't agree about the way you assess value, and I don't think it's so much about fashion as you pretend. Mobility choices are lifestyle choices. Buying a bicycle means getting rid of parking issue and exercising everyday by default, without the cost of having to decide to do it. Despite road violence coming from car drivers, it's less stressful because it keeps you connected to your environment. The value of a bike compared to a car is like the value of a lower paying job that has less pressure, in a lower cost of living area, a shorter commute, and better offices and colleagues. You can't compare them easily.
jwr 6y ago
> Lets not pretend that the value is even comparable here If you want a car, the value is not comparable, and you should get a car. If you do not want a car (for any reason), it doesn't make any sense to "compare value". I do not understand why so many people react with "you could get a car for this much" when looking at expensive E-bikes. Well, perhaps you could, but so what? A car is not equivalent to an E-bike, except that they are both options for transportation. But so is public transport, an airplane, an 18-wheel truck and a cargo ship. In my case, while I would probably not want an $8000 cargo bike, I do not have a problem paying around $2000 for a good quality E-bike — and I would not compare it to a car, nor would I compare it to an 18-wheel truck. It's a different mode of transport.
TulliusCicero 6y ago
This is an argument out of ignorance. You don't know anything about electric cargo bikes, but you're confident in judging them anyway. Why?
- kabacha 6y ago
  Do I need to know how to pilot a helicopter to know that's its a complex and expensive machine? The response is quite mind boggling. Are you really implying a vehicle with engine, safety systems that have been refined for a century and probably has markup in single digit percents is less valuable than a niche product that produced for the high-class with a 1000 percent markup? I know many tech people are spoiled high class citizens but this thread is just ridiculous. There's nothing wrong you liking the bike just don't judge the rest of the world's peasants claiming that it could equate and replace whatever poor people are using.
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    > Are you really implying a vehicle with engine, safety systems that have been refined for a century The ignorance displayed here is astounding. Appealing to the length of cars' history, when bikes have been around for even longer? Really? > produced for the high-class with a 1000 percent markup? Even more absurdity. I'm sure the markup is higher than for cars, but a thousand percent just reveals how little you know in a subject you're nevertheless overwhelmingly confident on. You complain about the actual knowledgeable people being "spoiled high class citizens", even as you advertise your ignorance on the subject with nearly every sentence.
    - TylerE 6y ago
      Not actually true. The first car dates from 1769, the first bicycle from 1839.
    - kabacha 6y ago
      Oof, it's almost like the concept of hyperbole is alien to you. Sure it's not 1000 percent markup but it's much much higher than middle class automobile. It's a niche product for upper class urban citizen, of course markup is high here. You can't serisouly be thinking that a electric bicycle has actually worth 8000$ of parts right? Not even 4000$, right?

cheschire 6y ago

Cars are wildly impractical in much of Benelux. You’re forcing your worldview where it doesn’t fit. The other poster said Home Depot though so is most likely American. Go reply to that person with your myopic views.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
"wildly" is wildly exaggerated, "the Benelux" is much more than the car-unfriendly urban areas.
- notagoodidea 6y ago
  As much as I don't agree with the aggressive tone of the grand-parent post, I tend to find it less a problem outside the urban areas due to the bike roads in the "countryside" more available either in Belgium or the Netherlands. It is also the part of the countries when the need of a car is enhanced due the need to travel way longer distances to reach day-to-day facilities (supermarket, shops, etc.). And yes, different countries, different prices, requirements etc. Comparison is fallacious but taking inspiration of something done in another part of the world and applying it with the constraints of your own environment is always useful. The question of mobility is much centred around the mobility in urban areas of various sizes. I may project here because I used to live in urban areas most of my life.

mypalmike 6y ago

The value of a tool is how it serves the user's needs. Different users, different situations, different needs.

Xylakant 6y ago

Value is always relative to your intended use case. I own a similar sized and prized cargo bike. It replaces all my urban transportation needs, carrying me and my 3yo kid and all the cargo we need. It’s cargo capacity is in line with a small car. My average speed in the city is about 20km/h which is very much in line with a cars average speed in an urban setting. On many of our daily commutes it’s even faster than a car. For us, it entirely replaces a car. It’s cheaper to maintain. I can largely fix it myself. I ride it for about 3000-4000 km per year, which is a definite indicator that it’s not a toy device.

jacquesm 6y ago

(1) bikes are priced disproportionally high compared to cars, (2) e-bike even more so, (3) this is a top of the line model from a fancy brand, (4) cost of ownership of a bike is a very small fraction of a car, with a bike when you've paid for it you're done, maintenance is cheap and DIY. Cars: insurance, expensive maintenance, road tax, fuel etc. Personally I almost always buy my bikes second hand, there are always deals to be had where bikes are only a few months old and are sold with a 50% or more discount.

abyssin 6y ago
In Belgium, second hand bikes tend to be overpriced, because many sellers aren't aware of the disproportionately high cost of local labor compared to the cost of producing a new bike. The price of local labor should be taken into account because you need it to maintain the second hand bike. I used to buy my bikes second hand, but I've switched to buying a new one every three years, and it requires little maintenance since I choose a higher end one. I agree with you comparison to cars. In the last five years prices have significantly gone down thanks to big players like Decathlon or online brands, but they're still quite high. 500 euros can buy you 1000 kg of second hand metal, or an entry-level bicycle. I know there's more to it, but I still don't understand why good quality bicycles cost so much to produce.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  Another angle: or why cars are so incredibly cheap for what they offer. Do keep in mind that car manufacturers make a lot more on the after-sales track than bike manufacturers ever will and some might be willing to reduce the sticker price a bit but raise the price of parts and maintenance to counterbalance that.
  - kabacha 6y ago
    I think it's just the difference that car industry is much bigger and much more efficient with its labor. It's also widely different markets so clearly markup is very different. Where automobile markup is often not more than few percent hipster urban ebike market can easily justify 500% markup.

fnord123 6y ago

With car share schemes, the value of buying a car when you only use it occasionally is greatly diminished while a cargo bike can be used daily for the school run. But it depends where you are. American towns and cities are largely built for cars. Many European cities are built for walking and are pedestrianizing their city centers. Depending on your situation there's no need for a car aside from really occasional use. Calling a cargo bike "purely a high-class fashion vehicle" is not correct.

matsemann 6y ago

> Lets not pretend that the value is even comparable here. Agreed, but for opposite reasons. As someone living in a city I drive a few times a year. I bike 200kms a week, though. So the value of a bicycle is vastly better.

michaelt 6y ago

> It's purely a high-class fashion vehicle But that's true of any motor vehicle that isn't a sub-$1000 used Corolla. Buying a $10,000 e-bike isn't something I'd do personally, but it's certainly no crazier than buying a $100,000 Tesla.

abyssin 6y ago

I don't agree about the way you assess value, and I don't think it's so much about fashion as you pretend. Mobility choices are lifestyle choices. Buying a bicycle means getting rid of parking issue and exercising everyday by default, without the cost of having to decide to do it. Despite road violence coming from car drivers, it's less stressful because it keeps you connected to your environment. The value of a bike compared to a car is like the value of a lower paying job that has less pressure, in a lower cost of living area, a shorter commute, and better offices and colleagues. You can't compare them easily.

jwr 6y ago

> Lets not pretend that the value is even comparable here If you want a car, the value is not comparable, and you should get a car. If you do not want a car (for any reason), it doesn't make any sense to "compare value". I do not understand why so many people react with "you could get a car for this much" when looking at expensive E-bikes. Well, perhaps you could, but so what? A car is not equivalent to an E-bike, except that they are both options for transportation. But so is public transport, an airplane, an 18-wheel truck and a cargo ship. In my case, while I would probably not want an $8000 cargo bike, I do not have a problem paying around $2000 for a good quality E-bike — and I would not compare it to a car, nor would I compare it to an 18-wheel truck. It's a different mode of transport.

TulliusCicero 6y ago

This is an argument out of ignorance. You don't know anything about electric cargo bikes, but you're confident in judging them anyway. Why?

kabacha 6y ago
Do I need to know how to pilot a helicopter to know that's its a complex and expensive machine? The response is quite mind boggling. Are you really implying a vehicle with engine, safety systems that have been refined for a century and probably has markup in single digit percents is less valuable than a niche product that produced for the high-class with a 1000 percent markup? I know many tech people are spoiled high class citizens but this thread is just ridiculous. There's nothing wrong you liking the bike just don't judge the rest of the world's peasants claiming that it could equate and replace whatever poor people are using.
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  > Are you really implying a vehicle with engine, safety systems that have been refined for a century The ignorance displayed here is astounding. Appealing to the length of cars' history, when bikes have been around for even longer? Really? > produced for the high-class with a 1000 percent markup? Even more absurdity. I'm sure the markup is higher than for cars, but a thousand percent just reveals how little you know in a subject you're nevertheless overwhelmingly confident on. You complain about the actual knowledgeable people being "spoiled high class citizens", even as you advertise your ignorance on the subject with nearly every sentence.
  - TylerE 6y ago
    Not actually true. The first car dates from 1769, the first bicycle from 1839.
  - kabacha 6y ago
    Oof, it's almost like the concept of hyperbole is alien to you. Sure it's not 1000 percent markup but it's much much higher than middle class automobile. It's a niche product for upper class urban citizen, of course markup is high here. You can't serisouly be thinking that a electric bicycle has actually worth 8000$ of parts right? Not even 4000$, right?