7 ms·
I think I’m done with HN
- asveikau 6y agoOn some of those peak days of BLM protests, I came on here and it was like the whole thing wasn't happening. It did seem strange. If nothing else people here should stop pretending they're above the zeitgeist. How many others remember the slashdot threads on 9/11, for example? This is a big defining moment in our times worth more conscious observance. Tech cares too.
- conductr 6y agoI noticed the silence of HN too. Was looking for some level headed discussions on the topic. Then what I recalled was around March onset of shutdown, HN was posting some things about funding startups in the space (being part of the covid solution). I was expecting to see something similar for startups that could improve race relations in some way, was interested in how technology/startups could be a part of the solution. chirp chirp
- loopz 6y agoFor the boring technical solution, read https://hckrnews.com/ https://hckrnews.com/ . There's loads of political posts on HN.
- idiocratic 6y agoMaybe HN (and the web) has become less US-centric and more global? In Europe the issue is marginal to say the least, in Asia I believe they don't even consider it news-worthy, and so on. The opposite of "defining" for most of the planet.
- hckr_news 6y agoWeren’t Europeans on the street marching in solidarity? I wouldn’t dismiss it entirely as a US issue.
- loopz 6y agoGlobal solidarity demos against racism gets lost on US-only centrism.
- ananth22by7 6y agoThose of us in browsing HN and tech news in India find the inundation of BLM posts unrelatable. Tech and product is something people across the world can relate to. US-centric political issues are not.
- loopz 6y agoHN is heavily moderated by users and mods, so you get to see what content according to site policy, mostly. If you want all the stories, there's https://hckrnews.com/ https://hckrnews.com/ sorted by time. Lots of politics gets through enough to follow the zeitgeist, without getting forever lost, like this guy.
- wayneftw 6y ago“Tech cares too”? What does that even mean? That’s the sort of sweeping generalization about a group of people that racists make.
- asveikau 6y agoIt means we are human beings and current events are relevant to us. We are not above it. It is not an irrelevant topic somehow beneath us. Our professions, our tendency towards rational view of the world, should not be a mechanism to deny reality and put ourselves on pedestals, to create distance with other human beings. When we dismiss a major event as not relevant to tech that is what we are doing. I see it as somewhat egotistical.
- wayneftw 6y agoSo, you feel that every single niche forum must be discussing this or they're not being human? What if this were a body building forum or a site where chefs and their kitchen cooks talk shop? Would you feel the same way about the users of those sites? I'm sure plenty of people in tech don't really give a shit as is their right.
- asveikau 6y ago> Would you feel the same way about the users of those sites? Yes, it would not at all be unreasonable for any of those categories. If they are seeing it all over the place as we all are, having intense reactions as many people are and extend the sentiment into their niche forums that seems totally legit and reasonable. I suppose you have a right to be a grumpy person and deny them it, but, I would say relax, give them a break, and maybe stop taking yourself so seriously.
- jka 6y agoNote that there's a function available to view the historic frontpage content on HN for a given date: https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=YYYY-MM-DD https://news.ycombinator.com/front?day=YYYY-MM-DD
- s9w 6y ago"And I think I’m done with it" and posts on HN. This topic was discussed to death - right now the story right under this is another tech company yielding to the speech police mob by doing another master branch rename. This topic has suffocated anything of relevance in the last weeks.
- scollet 6y ago> anything of relevance What about this discussion is not relevant? I remember HN getting over COVID about a month ago too.
- free_rms 6y agoThere's been about a thread a day about BLM. There's been one thread, one day about Scott Alexander.
- thechosenblerd 6y agoThat's the unfortunate reality of the tech community and really privilege itself. It's uncomfortable to acknowledge the misfortunes of others. It's a sad norm of American culture, especially when it pertains to black people.
- azhu 6y agoAgreed. Its constituents should endeavor to change that similar to how broader society is doing so around it.
- dang 6y agoI agree with you about it being uncomfortable to acknowledge the misfortune of others. We could go deeply into that question. But I hope you're aware that the claims the OP made are not true at all—HN has had dozens of threads and tens of thousands of comments on the cluster of topics related to George Floyd (BLM, protests, police brutality, racism). This has been the most-discussed theme of the past month by far, supplanting coronavirus, and 10x more discussed than any of the most popular technical topics. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962
- legohead 6y agoThere are plenty of appropriate places to talk about BLM and other world events. Just because the community here may not be focused on it doesn't make it a bad community. Frankly, when sociological discussions show up here it's kind of awkward.
- joe-collins 6y agoPerhaps they're awkward because they're unpracticed. In most tech threads, the top comments are often those with an insider opinion or "back in my day" tale. A sociological thread doesn't typically lend itself to those. And I assume HN has a far smaller proportion of experts (and less motivation to snag that ego boost from flaunting wisdom) on the trending topics (e.g. black persons and other victims of police brutality) than it would for, say, such-and-such Ruby feature.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- aiscapehumanity 6y agoThere is no community, just a weird amorphous group that stands between other conspecifics and mods who flag and silence posts they don't like.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- azhu 6y agoAs a younger person, I agree, it is very disappointing. I would've guessed YC more prescient than to not realize there are tectonic cultural shifts heavily worth deep discussion happening. I've noticed that sometimes, when people rise through ranks or otherwise mature in the world of business, they become disconnected from regular humanity and forget that emotions are real signals.
- free_rms 6y ago(since this whole story is flagged) As an older person, this is another iteration of the same shit and unfortunately nothing will change. Part of the reason it won't change is that a bunch of upper-class white people try to make it all about their sociological theories instead of the really simple premise of "cops aren't accountable and that's not ok". They're spending their effort going after Scott Alexander, who's generally on their side on this stuff, for his insufficient group loyalty. It's a total self-own, constantly from these people, and it plays right into the cops' hands. We're up against a lot of resistance and there's no room for selfishness like that.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y agoYea anti-racism is a modern religion. It's counterproductive, and I expect a net-negative backlash than useful reform and change. No longer is it ok to affirm the human dignity and the equality of minorities. Racism is assumed globally so the question now becomes how is a person instantiating racism, not if a person is instantiating racism. It's screwed up and bizarre.
- zozbot234 6y agoIt's especially screwed up and bizarre because this whole fuzzy, religious outlook thoroughly obscures the relevance of real, actual, systemic racism in the workings of institutions like criminal justice (including policing) in the United States. Here you have the clearest argument for systemic racism being a real dynamic even in a developed, largely-free country like the U.S. (and presumably it's no coincidence that CRT, from which we get this notion in the first place, originated from a subfield of legal studies), and yet you probably wouldn't know this from looking at the progressive debate on this issue, which simply sticks to its meaningless, mindless religious tropes. Quite mind-boggling.
- aiscapehumanity 6y agoDone with caring about comments here that aren't links to resources. Karma system is dysfunctional, and socialization here isn't too meaningful coupled with the guidelines. I'm about to lose points, but as far as I am concerned real community here is dead. But I respect the decision to leave.
- loopz 6y agohttps://hckrnews.com/ https://hckrnews.com/ or use search
- badrabbit 6y agoOh wow, this made it to the front page and it just got flagged! I was going to say how i really don't care about mainstream news topics worming their way to HN but man, this is crazy. I understand downvotes and bans but flagging this and shadowbans are hitting below the belt. Is this site for the intellectually dishonest? If not this b.s. needs to stop. How many "I quit facebook" posts make it to the front page all the time? How many social activism related topics make it to the front page. Counter argument to those who say it's not relevant: technology made these protests possible and technlogy is where the fight is happening right now. I hope the moderator team (@dang) pays attention to this.
- hckr_news 6y agoUnfortunately users will flag content they don’t like.
- Rochus 6y agoWhich restricts freedom of speech in an arbitrary, unlawful manner. See e.g https://dejure.org/dienste/vernetzung/rechtsprechung?Gericht=OLG%20M%FCnchen&Datum=24.08.2018&Aktenzeichen=18%20W%201294/18 https://dejure.org/dienste/vernetzung/rechtsprechung?Gericht... or https://www.mondaq.com/germany/social-media/735562/munich-court-of-appeal-prohibits-facebook-from-deleting-a-post-that-does-not-fall-under-the-german-hate-speech-act https://www.mondaq.com/germany/social-media/735562/munich-co...
- loopz 6y agoThis twit is blaming effective mods instead of using search or https://hckrnews.com/ https://hckrnews.com/ You'll find lots of interesting posts about police and george if you bother.
- dang 6y agoI did pay attention, because the OP's claims are false. When people say false things about HN and try to gin up outrage with them, I unfortunately feel obliged to respond. If you haven't seen these comments, and are willing to read them, I'd be curious to hear if you feel like there's anything that remains unaddressed. I listed 52 threads but it could just as easily have been 102. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 Since you mention intellectual honesty: do you think the OP or any of the people who jumped to the same false conclusions will correct anything? I would be surprised if they did, even though acknowledging a mistake of this nature is the bare minimum that intellectual honesty requires. Edit: on reflection, that last bit crossed a line and I owe the OP an apology. It's one thing to go on about intellectual honesty in general but there was a specific person in the mix and I should have left more room for the possibility that I was misunderstanding him, especially since I know how easy that is on the internet. I was doing the very thing I was complaining about—jumping to conclusions! Sometimes it takes a while to realize this, but it's embarrassingly obvious now. I've told the OP that I'm sorry, and want to say so publicly also.
- andrewxdiamond 6y agoI am pretty confused. What kindof discussion is expected? Searching for "police" or "BLM" on the site brings up many heavily commented threads. Do they know the site has a search function? I didn't for a while. There's a search box on the bottom of the page
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago> Appeal to authority with internet points > Moan that HN won't support you spilling your politics that already fill your twitter feed over into the site, despite many alternatives existing > Recognize it's a free site and it can do what it wants > Assert it's wrong, and doing wrong, by disagreeing with you, that voice of karma-provided authority > Post your Twitter rant to HN for attention > HN democratically removes your rant > Whimper on Twitter that HN, the site you're apparently done with, aren't facilitating your anti-HN rants, implicitly encouraging your following to do some bandwagoning God only knows what drama this person would be capable of if HN kowtowed and facilitated their self-approved topics for discussion. Why ask for Reddit 2.0 when you can just stick to Reddit.com?
- blaser-waffle 6y agoIndeed. This is a stripped down tech news aggregator for niche audiences. A thread or two on big cultural trends of the day makes sense but this isn't reddit or twitter.
- yongjik 6y agoNot sure why anybody's upset that HN didn't have much discussion on, above anything, George Floyd. HN discourages (and always discouraged) "me too" style remarks, like "Oh that's awful", "that's outrageous", or "that's gross injustice!" But exactly what other reasonable opinions are available here? I mean, would you want to see people discussing here whether Derek Chauvin was justified in killing George Floyd? Because I don't.
- bichiliad 6y agoI think there's a lot more to discuss other than Derek Chauvin's culpability. HN is full of really bright people; I'd love to hear what they think about tech's role in enabling police brutality like this to exist, and what is in our capacity to do to help solve the problem.
- yongjik 6y agoAnd if I search for "police" I see 5 discussions with 100+ comments in the past week alone! So I think there's a lot of discussion regarding police brutality, just not about Floyd's murder itself. (Well, I guess some people might wish HN had even more discussion on police brutality, but we're veering into meta-meta-discussion.)
- dang 6y agoIn that case you may be glad to see how many major discussions like that HN has hosted in the past few weeks. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624962 Sorry not to have listed the titles, but there are many tech-overlapping threads in there, and many more that I didn't list. HN Search can help—for example: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=comments%3E30%20police&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- loopz 6y agoProbably upset mods are effective, and can't be bothered to search or use https://hckrnews.com/ https://hckrnews.com/
- HeyZuess 6y agoAs someone who is not American, the BLM issues while important are not really something which I see needing to dominate every form of media I consume, especially those dedicated to more technology related issues. It is also nice to have a broad range of topics which are intellectual based also. Given the emotional nature of the protests, it wouldn't be surprising that if such a topic was left unmoderated it would lead to a lot of mirrored content and information.
- Antoninus 6y agoFlag this accordingly.
- dang 6y ago> while any mention of the fate of George Floyd and so many others who have suffered and died at the hands of police gets aggressively removed from discussion That's not even close to true—not by orders of magnitude. This seems like a classic of the notice-dislike bias (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...): that is, you've seen things that you didn't like in one discussion and weighted it more heavily than everything else, including the by-far-most-discussed theme of the last month. That bias is so powerful that I'm not sure I've seen even a single counterexample, and it seems to make objective assessment impossible. I don't know what to do about it. We can't remove everything that somebody dislikes—there would be nothing left—but the presence of material that people dislike makes them draw extremely distorted conclusions. I believe this is an outcome of HN being a non-siloed site. Most other places on the internet, you choose your silo so you're surrounded by friendly views and don't encounter so many nasty things. Here, everyone's in one silo and it creates a shock experience. This leads people to dramatically false conclusions, but it doesn't matter because they feel intensely true. I wrote about this recently here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098.
- dang 6y agoSorry for the wall of links, but I want it to be clear that HN has had massive discussion about George Floyd, BLM, the protests, police brutality, race relations in the US, and related topics. I bet we'd have to go back to Snowden/NSA in Summer 2013 to find something comparable. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23614128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23614128 was on the front page all day today. Edit (12 hours later): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23628394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23628394 is on the front page now. Below is a sample of other major threads on these topics. There are many more, but I suppose 52 is enough to make the point. There are over 15k comments in these 52 threads alone. Let's double that and guess that there have been 30k comments on George Floyd-related themes. (I think that's conservative, since I came up with these 52 threads by ad hoc searching and there have been many others.) There have been 283k total comments on HN since George Floyd was killed (counting [dead] comments, which is generous since most readers don't see them), so if my guess is reasonable then over 10% of the comments on HN have been on these themes. On a site that seeks to avoid repetition, that is beyond massive. For comparison, I picked the most popular technical topic I could think of, which is Rust. There have been 2664 comments on posts with 'Rust' in the title over the same time period—an order of magnitude less. When you're 10x bigger than Rust on HN, and someone calls that "aggressively removed from discussion", we seem to have left behind shared reality. ---- Mathematicians urge colleagues to boycott police work in wake of killings - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23604277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23604277 - June 2020 (232 comments) ‘BlueLeaks’ Exposes Files from Hundreds of Police Departments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23599081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23599081 - June 2020 (343 comments) NYC passes POST Act, requiring police department to reveal surveillance tech - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23586791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23586791 - June 2020 (91 comments) Nextdoor ends its program for forwarding suspicions to police - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23586228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23586228 - June 2020 (121 comments) U.S. Watched George Floyd Protests in 15 Cities Using Aerial Surveillance - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23579438 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23579438 - June 2020 (59 comments) Navigating the Venture World as a Black VC - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564048 - June 2020 (75 comments) FBI used Etsy, LinkedIn to make arrest in torching of Philadelphia police cars - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23556608 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23556608 - June 2020 (376 comments) ‘Hey Siri, I’m getting pulled over’: Records police interaction, sends location - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23544749 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23544749 - June 2020 (101 comments) For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162 - June 2020 (775 comments) After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23528224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23528224 - June 2020 (790 comments) George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23522602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23522602 - June 2020 (794 comments) Facebook fires employee for publicly scolding a colleague - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23504445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23504445 - June 2020 (313 comments) Microsoft won’t sell police its facial-recognition technology - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23491226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23491226 - June 2020 (53 comments) Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23488307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23488307 - June 2020 (852 comments) Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23484574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23484574 - June 2020 (293 comments) Police have been spying on black reporters and activists for years - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23482979 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23482979 - June 2020 (153 comments) Wikipedia became a battleground for racial justice - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23474974 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23474974 - June 2020 (23 comments) Why filming police violence has done nothing to stop it, so far - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23467912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23467912 - June 2020 (29 comments) Transcribed police scanners in real-time - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23461607 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23461607 - June 2020 (105 comments) Protests about police brutality are met with wave of police brutality across US - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23445980 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23445980 - June 2020 (71 comments) Americans' perceptions of police drop significantly in one week - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23443410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23443410 - June 2020 (250 comments) Facebook limits spread of 'Boogaloo' groups amid protests - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23442294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23442294 - June 2020 (97 comments) If you see the cops, start recording - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23432463 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23432463 - June 2020 (256 comments) Why So Many Police Are Handling the Protests Wrong - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23428606 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23428606 - June 2020 (107 comments) The Unmarked Federal Agents Occupying Washington, D.C - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23428432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23428432 - June 2020 (158 comments) Signal app downloads spike as US protesters seek message encryption - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23424245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23424245 - June 2020 (356 comments) CIA veterans who monitored crackdowns see parallels - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23415447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23415447 - June 2020 (63 comments) How much do we need the police? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23409370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23409370 - June 2020 (464 comments) ACLU sues Minnesota for police violence against the press - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23406844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23406844 - June 2020 (247 comments) A Git Repo to Document Police Brutality During the 2020 George Floyd Protests - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23399533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23399533 - June 2020 (254 comments) DEA authorized to conduct surveillance on protestors - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23397868 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23397868 - June 2020 (313 comments) Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23393914 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23393914 - June 2020 (768 comments) Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23392393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23392393 - June 2020 (324 comments) The business of tear gas - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391669 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391669 - June 2020 (214 comments) Thousands are monitoring police scanners during the George Floyd protests - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23390707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23390707 - June 2020 (192 comments) White nationalist group posing as antifa called for violence on Twitter - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23386626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23386626 - June 2020 (225 comments) De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23385741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23385741 - June 2020 (721 comments) Protests become fertile ground for online disinformation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23385727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23385727 - June 2020 (117 comments) The Police Data Accessibility Project - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23384556 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23384556 - June 2020 (90 comments) George Floyd died of asphyxia, private autopsy finds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23382954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23382954 - June 2020 (52 comments) Facebook employees stage virtual walkout in protest of company’s stance - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23382573 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23382573 - June 2020 (81 comments) As Qualified Immunity Takes Center Stage, More Delay from SCOTUS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379910 - June 2020 (313 comments) How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379397 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379397 - June 2020 (396 comments) Police act like laws don't apply to them because of Qualified Immunity - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373329 - May 2020 (133 comments) Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23371048 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23371048 - May 2020 (114 comments) Image Scrubber: tool for anonymizing photographs taken at protests - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23369873 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23369873 - May 2020 (379 comments) Surveillance tools used by the Minneapolis Police Department - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23355572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23355572 - May 2020 (177 comments) US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23352785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23352785 - May 2020 (412 comments) CNN reporter arrested live on air while covering Minneapolis protests [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23349294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23349294 - May 2020 (344 comments) CNN team arrested by Minnesota police on live television - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23348464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23348464 - May 2020 (31 comments) Twitter hides Donald Trump tweet for “glorifying violence” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23347155 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23347155 - May 2020 (1467 comments)
- akvadrako 6y agoI see the opposite; I think there are too many posts and comments about BLM. They are also heavily skewed in support of the movement, so anything skeptical gets flagged/downvoted. It seems like this user demands a silo where his views are not questioned. Certainly HN is better without people like that.
- RickJWagner 6y agoWell, he sure showed us!
- kangnkodos 6y agoI don't think there are enough threads on HN saying that vegans are right, and evil egg-eating vegetarians are wrong. Therefore, I have concluded that HN is a den of evil egg eaters. I just don't feel safe reading opinions of people who have their moral compass compromised in this way. So I think I too am done with HN.