5 ms·

I see the current problems with the financial markets have already had much impact on CS/software hire, especially in London. I hope this is not a return to the

by babul 18y ago

I see the current problems with the financial markets have already had much impact on CS/software hire, especially in London. I hope this is not a return to the bad days of UK CS job prospects, circa 2001-2002, after the internet bubble burst and 9/11. Back then even very proficient students at leading universities had hard time finding jobs. These were people who did programming outside of uni courses, had good summer work experiences, built multi-threaded distributed desktop apps as well as web apps, and were actual 'problem solvers' with good skills in mathematic modeling and algorithm design and architectural design skills. However there was simply no market, regardless of how good they were. Now, it seems as courses get diluted it really only harms all parties concerned and I often think the best thing someone with good A-levels should do is go directly into industry or in a startup/SME atleast before going to uni.

tom_rath 18y ago
2001-2002 wasn't bad. I know it seemed that way but it really wasn't. 1990-1994 was frickin' nuclear winter for (almost?) all engineering in (almost?) all western nations. Senior staff in many offices would be left reading newspapers at their desks (superb people with no contracts and nothing to do) and there were extremely few junior positions to be filled. Any work which brought in food and paid rent was welcome, and most of that was stuff I never thought I'd see with a degree. On the flip-side: After surviving that, bootstrapping a company from scratch was a breeze.
- eru 18y ago
  Where did you work?
  - tom_rath 18y ago
    At the time? Any place which would pay! Here's the dynamic a recent graduate faces in a severe recession: No companies in your field are hiring. Period. Contract work is out as well, since larger companies are now scooping up all of the 'crumbs' which used to sustain junior contractors. There are no boring Q/A jobs to temporarily take, no support jobs, no documentation jobs. Nothing. You could bump your expectations down and try for work for which you are 'overqualified', but there are tons of experienced, desperate and unemployed people fighting for those jobs too. They will accept less pay than you and any employer with half a clue knows you will bolt the moment you get an offer that fits your qualifications anyhow, making you an inevitable cost and waste of resources to train. Barring an awesome network or family favours, those are out. So, where does that leave you? I'm sure the seasoned Gen-Xers on the board remember :-) My own low point was sitting in a basement, handling dispatch phones for a school board's janitorial service, while the 'senior manager' of the group was briefing me on the arduous tasks I'd be facing; at one point explaining to me how to add a column of figures by hand ('you have to carry the one here...'). Most of my friends have similar recession stories and we can all laugh about them now, but things can get far shittier far faster than you'd ever dream possible. I wouldn't suggest you face the future with dread, but don't kid yourself when you plan out what your 'worst case scenario' could be. Bad economic times can be _really_ bad and it's often a struggle to get through them. You will, though. It's all cyclical and prospects do improve with time.
    - pg 18y ago
      So, where does that leave you? http://news.ycombinator.com/apply http://news.ycombinator.com/apply
      - tom_rath 18y ago
        ..and for those who don't make the cut? A recent graduate in recessionary times rarely has the luxury of sitting back and waiting for the next application round. When there's rent to pay, food to buy and an empty bank account facing you, things can be a little rough.
        pg 18y ago
        Sorry, I didn't mean to imply YC is the solution for everyone. I just wanted to point out that we're still funding, regardless of the economic weather. (The average startup takes longer to succeed than economic cycles ordinarily last, so we ignore them.)
        Goladus 18y ago
        Even if one doesn't get YC funding, working on a startup is probably better for your career than cleaning toilets.
      - babul 18y ago
        Is this as close as it gets to a personal invitation on HN? :)
    - huherto 18y ago
      So you think that was hard? Try twenty years of recession mixed with 100% annual inflation in a third world country. That is what my parents went trough in the 70s and 80s. That is why I feel confident about the future, things can be wrong but at the end we will be OK. Just avoid debt, try to stay productive, and enjoy the roller coaster.
      - tom_rath 18y ago

by babul 18y ago

tom_rath 18y ago

2001-2002 wasn't bad. I know it seemed that way but it really wasn't. 1990-1994 was frickin' nuclear winter for (almost?) all engineering in (almost?) all western nations. Senior staff in many offices would be left reading newspapers at their desks (superb people with no contracts and nothing to do) and there were extremely few junior positions to be filled. Any work which brought in food and paid rent was welcome, and most of that was stuff I never thought I'd see with a degree. On the flip-side: After surviving that, bootstrapping a company from scratch was a breeze.

eru 18y ago
Where did you work?
- tom_rath 18y ago
  At the time? Any place which would pay! Here's the dynamic a recent graduate faces in a severe recession: No companies in your field are hiring. Period. Contract work is out as well, since larger companies are now scooping up all of the 'crumbs' which used to sustain junior contractors. There are no boring Q/A jobs to temporarily take, no support jobs, no documentation jobs. Nothing. You could bump your expectations down and try for work for which you are 'overqualified', but there are tons of experienced, desperate and unemployed people fighting for those jobs too. They will accept less pay than you and any employer with half a clue knows you will bolt the moment you get an offer that fits your qualifications anyhow, making you an inevitable cost and waste of resources to train. Barring an awesome network or family favours, those are out. So, where does that leave you? I'm sure the seasoned Gen-Xers on the board remember :-) My own low point was sitting in a basement, handling dispatch phones for a school board's janitorial service, while the 'senior manager' of the group was briefing me on the arduous tasks I'd be facing; at one point explaining to me how to add a column of figures by hand ('you have to carry the one here...'). Most of my friends have similar recession stories and we can all laugh about them now, but things can get far shittier far faster than you'd ever dream possible. I wouldn't suggest you face the future with dread, but don't kid yourself when you plan out what your 'worst case scenario' could be. Bad economic times can be _really_ bad and it's often a struggle to get through them. You will, though. It's all cyclical and prospects do improve with time.
  - pg 18y ago
    So, where does that leave you? http://news.ycombinator.com/apply http://news.ycombinator.com/apply
    - tom_rath 18y ago
      ..and for those who don't make the cut? A recent graduate in recessionary times rarely has the luxury of sitting back and waiting for the next application round. When there's rent to pay, food to buy and an empty bank account facing you, things can be a little rough.
      - pg 18y ago
        Sorry, I didn't mean to imply YC is the solution for everyone. I just wanted to point out that we're still funding, regardless of the economic weather. (The average startup takes longer to succeed than economic cycles ordinarily last, so we ignore them.)
        Goladus 18y ago
        Even if one doesn't get YC funding, working on a startup is probably better for your career than cleaning toilets.
    - babul 18y ago
      Is this as close as it gets to a personal invitation on HN? :)
  - huherto 18y ago
    So you think that was hard? Try twenty years of recession mixed with 100% annual inflation in a third world country. That is what my parents went trough in the 70s and 80s. That is why I feel confident about the future, things can be wrong but at the end we will be OK. Just avoid debt, try to stay productive, and enjoy the roller coaster.
    - tom_rath 18y ago