5 ms·

Yes well done. How do you think police determine if they're in limit or not. They test them. She could have been on her way in 5 minutes but chose to act like

Yes well done. How do you think police determine if they're in limit or not. They test them. She could have been on her way in 5 minutes but chose to act like an idiot.

thephyber 6y ago
> but chose to act like an idiot Do people choose to have panic attacks? There are lots of documented cases of people who have panic attacks on planes and flip out. Are they "idiots" in your mind?
- randompwd 6y ago
  How is she having a panic attack? How is anything about her behaviour that night congruous to a panic attack? Seems like you're just writing an alternative narrative to explain away her behaviour.
  - bdamm 6y ago
    Regardless of any psychological label, the woman is clearly panicking, and the panic is caused by the police interaction. Being afraid and panicking is not illegal. If the police wanted to do this differently, they could issue a ticket for inspection, throw it in the car, and move on with their day. But instead they chose to get in a power struggle.
    - randompwd 6y ago
      Not complying with a lawful order _is_ illegal.
      - macintux 6y ago
        The point being that the lawful order was unnecessary and they could have deescalated, but chose to force her to comply. Over window tinting.
      - andyjohnson0 6y ago
        > Not complying with a lawful order _is_ illegal. I'm fairly sure the concept of a police constable giving a member of the public a "lawful order" doesn't exist in UK law. There are laws that give the police discretion to do things in particular situations, but no blanket ability to issue orders. And thankfully, illegality is determined by the courts on the basis of evidence and circumstance, not the police.
  - vidarh 6y ago
    Literally from the article I linked to above: > A consultant psychiatrist’s note says Bennett had a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder from a serious house fire and is likely to have been unable to comply with police instructions because she was experiencing a severe panic attack.
  - thephyber 6y ago
    The point isn't that I know she's having a panic attack. I'm not trying to force that to be the circumstance. But she could very well be having a legitimate physiological response (of which a panic attack could be one)... in which case she's not "being an idiot". As long as it was a good faith emotional response, your conclusions still aren't warranted.
andyjohnson0 6y ago
> She could have been on her way in 5 minutes but chose to act like an idiot. From the cam video I've seen she was clearly frightened of them. They could have chosen to use empathy instead of force.
- vidarh 6y ago
  Apart from the lack of empathy, it's an interesting study of a refusal to accept logic, in that he is refusing to acknowledge her fear, then continues to argue with her and gets responses he clearly considers illogical, sees the facts of the matter does not correspond to his expectations, yet fail to make the connection that this means he needs to reassess his initial assumptions as they are clearly wrong in one way or another. They really ought to use this and cases like it as a training case to teach officers to recognize when they start doubling down on a course of action that is so obviously counter-productive instead of pausing to reassess, as whether or not they were technically "wrong", he clearly did an awful job and ended up wasting police resources. So even in a scenario where the police don't care about empathy at all this way of responding was counter-productive.
vidarh 6y ago
And police could have resolved this peacefully but chose to escalate the situation with someone who was terrified of them because they were incapable of understanding why she would be scared of them, and in doing so creates more fear when people see how police may treat them. UK police are generally quite good at de-escalating situations they understand. I've praised them for that many times. E.g. they will go into situations with completely irate people without weapons, and rely on deescalation to bring it under control. What was it about this situation that prevented this officer from doing that? I've seen first hand that UK police are fully capable of being far more patient in far more serious situations. What was the urgency here? The police officer chose to escalate in a situation where the suspect was calm until he acted, and where his basis for wanting to search her vehicle in the first place was her fear reaction. Police need to be able to handle people with mental health issues, so whether or not you think her fear was justified, their way of handling it demonstrated a total failure of compassion in a situation where they had no basis for knowing why she was expressing fear. The issue remains all too often entirely blind to this kind of fear because they don't believe it is real and fail to understand it, and reacts by making all kinds of flawed conclusions, like in this case where the footage shows signal after signal that her fear of him is genuine, and his response is to assume the only explanation is that she is hiding something. As we know in retrospect, he demonstrated that he can not be relied on to make that kind of judgement.
- lenkite 6y ago
  UK police are great health councillors. When it comes to crime, they are toothless. They deliberately ignored massive sex crimes and sex trafficking due to fear of being accused as racist. When your life is in danger from criminals, don't trust the UK police - they will probably shake their hands. https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did-british-police-ignore-pakistani-gangs-raping-rotherham-children-political-correctness/#7cffe357754a https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did...
onion2k 6y ago
Here in the UK the police can issue "a producer" - it's effectively a caution to attend a police station and provide paperwork for something within 7 days. It's usually issued for things like broken lights, worn tyres, etc. You get a form from the officer, get the problem fixed, the mechanic stamps the form, and then you take it to a police station to show you fixed the problem. If you don't show up the police come to your house and arrest you. They could have given her one of those saying take the paperwork for the windows to the police station any time in the next week. She could have taken a friend with her if she's nervous. Violence is never the answer in a situation like that. The police officer was entirely wrong.
michaelmrose 6y ago
If they are close enough to legal that he needs a test to establish that they might be over the line maybe his enforcement action is without merit in the first place. What is the point?
ssalazar 6y ago
Yes, we definitely need people authorized to use deadly force going around making sure windows aren't overly tinted. /s

Yes well done. How do you think police determine if they're in limit or not. They test them. She could have been on her way in 5 minutes but chose to act like an idiot.

thephyber 6y ago

> but chose to act like an idiot Do people choose to have panic attacks? There are lots of documented cases of people who have panic attacks on planes and flip out. Are they "idiots" in your mind?

randompwd 6y ago
How is she having a panic attack? How is anything about her behaviour that night congruous to a panic attack? Seems like you're just writing an alternative narrative to explain away her behaviour.
- bdamm 6y ago
  Regardless of any psychological label, the woman is clearly panicking, and the panic is caused by the police interaction. Being afraid and panicking is not illegal. If the police wanted to do this differently, they could issue a ticket for inspection, throw it in the car, and move on with their day. But instead they chose to get in a power struggle.
  - randompwd 6y ago
    Not complying with a lawful order _is_ illegal.
    - macintux 6y ago
      The point being that the lawful order was unnecessary and they could have deescalated, but chose to force her to comply. Over window tinting.
    - andyjohnson0 6y ago
      > Not complying with a lawful order _is_ illegal. I'm fairly sure the concept of a police constable giving a member of the public a "lawful order" doesn't exist in UK law. There are laws that give the police discretion to do things in particular situations, but no blanket ability to issue orders. And thankfully, illegality is determined by the courts on the basis of evidence and circumstance, not the police.
- vidarh 6y ago
  Literally from the article I linked to above: > A consultant psychiatrist’s note says Bennett had a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder from a serious house fire and is likely to have been unable to comply with police instructions because she was experiencing a severe panic attack.
- thephyber 6y ago
  The point isn't that I know she's having a panic attack. I'm not trying to force that to be the circumstance. But she could very well be having a legitimate physiological response (of which a panic attack could be one)... in which case she's not "being an idiot". As long as it was a good faith emotional response, your conclusions still aren't warranted.

andyjohnson0 6y ago

> She could have been on her way in 5 minutes but chose to act like an idiot. From the cam video I've seen she was clearly frightened of them. They could have chosen to use empathy instead of force.

vidarh 6y ago
Apart from the lack of empathy, it's an interesting study of a refusal to accept logic, in that he is refusing to acknowledge her fear, then continues to argue with her and gets responses he clearly considers illogical, sees the facts of the matter does not correspond to his expectations, yet fail to make the connection that this means he needs to reassess his initial assumptions as they are clearly wrong in one way or another. They really ought to use this and cases like it as a training case to teach officers to recognize when they start doubling down on a course of action that is so obviously counter-productive instead of pausing to reassess, as whether or not they were technically "wrong", he clearly did an awful job and ended up wasting police resources. So even in a scenario where the police don't care about empathy at all this way of responding was counter-productive.

vidarh 6y ago

And police could have resolved this peacefully but chose to escalate the situation with someone who was terrified of them because they were incapable of understanding why she would be scared of them, and in doing so creates more fear when people see how police may treat them. UK police are generally quite good at de-escalating situations they understand. I've praised them for that many times. E.g. they will go into situations with completely irate people without weapons, and rely on deescalation to bring it under control. What was it about this situation that prevented this officer from doing that? I've seen first hand that UK police are fully capable of being far more patient in far more serious situations. What was the urgency here? The police officer chose to escalate in a situation where the suspect was calm until he acted, and where his basis for wanting to search her vehicle in the first place was her fear reaction. Police need to be able to handle people with mental health issues, so whether or not you think her fear was justified, their way of handling it demonstrated a total failure of compassion in a situation where they had no basis for knowing why she was expressing fear. The issue remains all too often entirely blind to this kind of fear because they don't believe it is real and fail to understand it, and reacts by making all kinds of flawed conclusions, like in this case where the footage shows signal after signal that her fear of him is genuine, and his response is to assume the only explanation is that she is hiding something. As we know in retrospect, he demonstrated that he can not be relied on to make that kind of judgement.

lenkite 6y ago
UK police are great health councillors. When it comes to crime, they are toothless. They deliberately ignored massive sex crimes and sex trafficking due to fear of being accused as racist. When your life is in danger from criminals, don't trust the UK police - they will probably shake their hands. https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did-british-police-ignore-pakistani-gangs-raping-rotherham-children-political-correctness/#7cffe357754a https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did...

onion2k 6y ago

Here in the UK the police can issue "a producer" - it's effectively a caution to attend a police station and provide paperwork for something within 7 days. It's usually issued for things like broken lights, worn tyres, etc. You get a form from the officer, get the problem fixed, the mechanic stamps the form, and then you take it to a police station to show you fixed the problem. If you don't show up the police come to your house and arrest you. They could have given her one of those saying take the paperwork for the windows to the police station any time in the next week. She could have taken a friend with her if she's nervous. Violence is never the answer in a situation like that. The police officer was entirely wrong.

michaelmrose 6y ago

If they are close enough to legal that he needs a test to establish that they might be over the line maybe his enforcement action is without merit in the first place. What is the point?

ssalazar 6y ago

Yes, we definitely need people authorized to use deadly force going around making sure windows aren't overly tinted. /s