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If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people? Ca

by dvtrn 6y ago

If we agree with that and agree that is some rough proxy for criminality why wouldn't we expect about 10 times as much police violence against Black people? Caveat lector: If we agree. I don't agree with this idea that the statistics of criminality in the black community is a proxy for anything, and more that it is a result of multiple compounding issues that snowballed throughout generations of peoples bringing us to where we are today. In your mind what is this a proxy for? I'd like to hear this notion unpacked. Those questions are varied and nuanced and their answers are equally varied and nuanced, and against the backdrop of exactly how certain members of the constabulary execute (pun most certainly and deliberately intended) violence in response to violence are people like me trying to desperately point at as this the topic we want to discuss when we say "Black Lives Matter", yet time and time again we have to stop and have the "black people commit more crimes" discussion with people who are focused on the math of crimes committed while black at the expense of just about any other valid variable in the equation. So if we take the "black people commit more crimes" framework on its face, does that mean they deserve to die for all of them? Did Sandra Bland really need to be shot because she didn't want to put out a cigarette at a traffic stop or could the officer have written her the moving citation she probably actually deserved, and gone about his policing elsewhere?[0] Did Eric Garner need asphyxiation for a civil citation when he was stopped for selling illegal cigarettes? Did George Floyd need to have a knee on his neck for nearly 10 minutes for a counterfeit $20? I challenge us all to think beyond just "well they committed a crime" and start asking some hard goddamn questions about what we're saying if that's going to be the response to critical theories of criminal justice-because many (not all) of the names commonly shouted out in discussion about police brutality committed petty offenses that should have received citations but instead received death sentences; highlighting a severely disproportionate view of policing scofflaws that breaks "well they broke the law" down into "contempt of cop"[1]. --- [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/22/a-trooper-arrested-sandra-bland-after-she-refused-to-put-out-a-cigarette-was-it-legal/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/2... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_cop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contempt_of_cop

treis 6y ago
> In your mind what is this a proxy for? Criminality, like I said. I don't see anywhere in your post where you actually addressed the point I made. Again, that is if Black people commit X times as many crimes we should expect X times as many negative police interactions. Whether that be excessive violence or innocents being swept up in police action or anything else.
- dvtrn 6y ago
  I addressed it by disagreeing with and refuting it. You assumed there was a consensus and agreement on the merits, there is no such consensus; criminality cannot be a proxy for criminality-at least I don't believe that to be the case. From this, allow me to make my position more clear: No, we shouldn't "expect" an increase in police violence in response to black criminality, because it assumes violence is the appropriate and proportionate State response to deviant criminal behavior when often it is neither appropriate nor proportionate nor even necessary. Again, Sandra Bland: died during a traffic stop; George Floyd and Eric Garner died during Terry[0] stops. Breonna Taylor died while she was asleep. Cite for me the case law that admonishes an escalation of physical force to issue civil citations and I will consider the point earnestly and openly. Furthermore, we need to narrow the scope and find an actionable definition for "officer safety" as many LEOs use as a defense against misconduct charges. Resisting arrest should not be a death sentence, officers should be trained better and dealt with far more swiftly (it took nearly three months for an officer who blind-fired into Breonna Taylor's house to even be disciplined by his precinct and still has not faced charges[1]). If I blind fired my weapon onto the streets and bullets went into someone's home, I'd be arrested and charged. If I blind fired my weapon unprovoked as a member of the armed services, as I formerly was, I'd be court marshaled faster than the SR-71 can fly for failure to follow rules of engagement. Public peace officers shouldn't be held to any lesser of a standard. Your premise is therefore addressed, but rejected on merits. --- [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop [1] https://blavity.com/officer-brett-hankison-will-be-fired-from-his-job-for-killing-breonna-taylor?category1=Social-Justice https://blavity.com/officer-brett-hankison-will-be-fired-fro...
  - 6y ago

by dvtrn 6y ago

treis 6y ago

> In your mind what is this a proxy for? Criminality, like I said. I don't see anywhere in your post where you actually addressed the point I made. Again, that is if Black people commit X times as many crimes we should expect X times as many negative police interactions. Whether that be excessive violence or innocents being swept up in police action or anything else.

dvtrn 6y ago
I addressed it by disagreeing with and refuting it. You assumed there was a consensus and agreement on the merits, there is no such consensus; criminality cannot be a proxy for criminality-at least I don't believe that to be the case. From this, allow me to make my position more clear: No, we shouldn't "expect" an increase in police violence in response to black criminality, because it assumes violence is the appropriate and proportionate State response to deviant criminal behavior when often it is neither appropriate nor proportionate nor even necessary. Again, Sandra Bland: died during a traffic stop; George Floyd and Eric Garner died during Terry[0] stops. Breonna Taylor died while she was asleep. Cite for me the case law that admonishes an escalation of physical force to issue civil citations and I will consider the point earnestly and openly. Furthermore, we need to narrow the scope and find an actionable definition for "officer safety" as many LEOs use as a defense against misconduct charges. Resisting arrest should not be a death sentence, officers should be trained better and dealt with far more swiftly (it took nearly three months for an officer who blind-fired into Breonna Taylor's house to even be disciplined by his precinct and still has not faced charges[1]). If I blind fired my weapon onto the streets and bullets went into someone's home, I'd be arrested and charged. If I blind fired my weapon unprovoked as a member of the armed services, as I formerly was, I'd be court marshaled faster than the SR-71 can fly for failure to follow rules of engagement. Public peace officers shouldn't be held to any lesser of a standard. Your premise is therefore addressed, but rejected on merits. --- [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop [1] https://blavity.com/officer-brett-hankison-will-be-fired-from-his-job-for-killing-breonna-taylor?category1=Social-Justice https://blavity.com/officer-brett-hankison-will-be-fired-fro...
- 6y ago